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Old 09-03-2018, 12:37 PM   #2191
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It’s tricky. I mean, “what are you willing and not willing to compromise to get what you want” is the important question, exactly as you say, when looking at the bigger picture.

But I think there’s a growing tendency for people to conflate separate political events based on perceived trends, and extrapolate similarities without acknowledging the various cultural nuances that make them different. It’s something I feel quite strongly about whenever I see people making comparisons between Brexit and Trump. The assumption often seems to be that because a person can trace some general parallels in attitude, or identify how one political result might plausibly have contributed to the momentum of the other in some way, that they’re inextricably linked, and that the mentality underpinning both is similar. I don’t think it’s that straightforward - not in a lot of cases, anyway, despite what outspoken protesters/commentators would have you believe. Of course, Nigel Farage cosying up to Trump didn’t help the optics (), but while Farage was instrumental in prompting the referendum, he was a fairly marginal figure when it came to actual campaigns for and against the UK staying in the EU.

A substantial number of people from both sides of the political divide over here had wanted to ‘leave’ for some time, with every intention to maintain very positive, mutually beneficial relationships with neighbouring countries in Europe (and fight to protect the rights of all people living over here at the time of the vote). The thing is, the EU was initially sold as a trading bloc in the 1950s (practical and sensible), but evolved into the political organisation it is today (seeking “ever closer union”) against a lot of people’s wishes. Possibly due to laziness, many weren't sufficiently engaged until - in their minds - it seemed too late to affect any sort of meaningful change (and all UK governments seemed unwilling to really push for it, in any case). Perhaps it’d be a bit like if the US, Mexico and Canada signed some sort of trade agreement, added a bit about free movement of people, and then slowly started shifting powers from their individual governments to the greater whole. When the going got tough, some people would want to cut their losses. I mean, literally the day before the referendum, a former President of the European Commission was calling for the establishment of a European Army - that sort of thing spooked people, I think ...

On the immigration issue, not every person who voted to leave necessarily thought “we want less people coming into our country” so much as “we want the people in the UK to feel like they have a direct say, one way or another, when they vote for their preferred parties during elections - rather than be forced to follow quotas set from the outside”. Restoring parliamentary sovereignty/moving closer toward Matt’s “direct democracy” ideal was the main impetus for many, not just the cover-up story for some sort of mass racist/anti-immigration sentiment. Many understood that the UK economy would take a hit in the short term (at least), and thought it was a price worth paying. Many others, sadly, will have felt the squeeze, and the lack of any sort of coherent Brexit vision in the aftermath will continue to raise questions about whether it would have just been better to wait for the rest of the continent to agree drastic reform was necessary from within (there was clear unrest in France, now Italy, and there’ll be more to come). But it wasn’t going to be neat whatever happened, truthfully - and there was a real sense, reinforced by comments by the UK government and EU itself, that this might be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity (for better or worse). There’s no putting the genie back in the bottle with this sort of thing. And in fairness, I thought there were plenty of reasonable, impassioned debates where speakers on both sides of the Brexit issue came across well. Some people were unsure how they were going to vote right up until the day of the referendum. And, there was some disgusting racism - absolutely. No apologies are being made for that. But the tenor of the argument was, for the most part, quite different from all things Trump. As I understand it, anyway.

I’ve probably talked around the houses a bit here without adding much. I’m just wary of the UK and US political situations being compared too closely. It’s often said that both of our viable parties in the UK are to the Left of the Republicans and Democrats in the US (both are overwhelmingly in favour of extreme gun control, are pro-choice etc.). And as much as some people might be found over here moaning “I wish we had someone like Trump over here to negotiate our Brexit” (which many people would be horrified by), there are just so many differences. Frankly, I don’t feel qualified to start unpicking the Trump issue (and related ideologies), as much as I’ve been following as an outsider - there’s just so much to cover, and the US is so much bigger ! But I honestly think it’s Matt’s complete feeling of alienation from what he’s witnessing in the US (as a very English guy who probably only lives there because of his wealth/privilege/relationship) that prompts some of his more irreverent comments. Not that it’s an excuse, really.

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Originally Posted by SerpentSatellite View Post
Matt again took a very important, very relevant issue, and boiled it down to exactly the wrong conclusion. Simplified the problem into something asinine.
Like the book of VHS covers that inspired the artwork for songs they don't fit with, it's just window dressing with zero substance or thought put into it.
I think we more or less agree on that ! I saw an interview recently (might have been a fairly old one?) where Matt was deflecting from some US issue or other with “but er … yeah, big fan of the constitution haha” as if he was fully aware he’s just bluffing/going through the motions/doesn't really know what he's talking about. None of which would notice half as much if he didn’t insist on making all the political references in his lyrics to begin with !!
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Old 09-03-2018, 04:08 PM   #2192
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I of course agree that there is more to it than Trump voter=Brexit voter=racist lowlife.
I can symphatise with Brexit voters a lot, and understand where lot of that resentment comes from, informed or not. That being said, there is definitely the same undercurrent in these national movements. Look also at Poland, Hungary in particular. From a sociopolitical point of view it is interesting how these movements don't seem to fit into the traditional left-right axis anymore. I mean, now it is the (Social) Democrat and Labour -the left- voters angry at leaving a free trade area, and the conservatives angry at global economics eliminating jobs and driving down wages.

The thing with justifying Matt's Brexit views (to which he is perfectly entitled to, of course) on "direct democracy" grounds doesn't really make much sense though, if you look at the spesifics: apparently he is fine with soft brexit only and wants to stay in the single market.
http://www.nme.com/news/music/muse-f...mments-1841187
How does it serve "direct democracy" when the rules would be made by others and you have to follow it without having any say in them?

(Oh and to comment on the earlier discussion, I also agree that some of the conspiracy stuff was played up/in jest. I thought this was obvious, but it leads to the question that why you would want to treat your art as a joke? Also, it's an argument against direct democracy that a puzzling amount of people buy into that type of nonsense for real...)
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Old 09-03-2018, 04:27 PM   #2193
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The thing with justifying Matt's Brexit views (to which he is perfectly entitled to, of course) on "direct democracy" grounds doesn't really make much sense though, if you look at the spesifics: apparently he is fine with soft brexit only and wants to stay in the single market.
http://www.nme.com/news/music/muse-f...mments-1841187
How does it serve "direct democracy" when the rules would be made by others and you have to follow it without having any say in them
Just quickly on this - that's a very good point, and I must say I forgot Matt went to such lengths to 'clarify' haha. At the time I remember thinking he was probably telling porkies about the single market I expect I'd disagree with him on a lot of things, but he's entitled to his opinions (or, to keep them to himself, if he'd prefer), and the Matt-Brexit/Scottish independence thing was very much an "of course he did " moment for me!
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Old 09-03-2018, 11:56 PM   #2194
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Why is everyone still arguing about this one shitty line in Thought Contagion? Fucking hell.
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Old 10-03-2018, 02:13 AM   #2195
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Because it's unbelievably bad and there's not much else to discuss.
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Old 10-03-2018, 06:31 AM   #2196
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Originally Posted by lurkinglurker View Post
Why is everyone still arguing about this one shitty line in Thought Contagion? Fucking hell.
It quite clearly isn’t really about that line, even though people come back to it from time to time.
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Old 11-03-2018, 01:54 AM   #2197
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Couple new Instagram posts. Matt's back at it with the acoustic says an acoustic track for real this time and he's still trying haha.
Also flipping through a book of VHS cover art so the album will probably have the same theme throughout aesthetically.
Honestly, I think this is a good idea. Muse have covered a lot of different bases in their career thus far, but I think two things they should be touching more on are acoustics (with pianos please) and pop electronics, even if it's an 80s vibe, which is cool by me anyway. Taking cues from 80s electronic and new wave artists (or just Depeche Mode) is how we got Map, which is a top 5 ever for me. Also, aside from the lyrics, TC is a legitimately fine Muse song, no complaints except that they "should" be doing better than average, but that doesn't make average bad.

What if Matt did an acoustic solo on a song?
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Old 11-03-2018, 05:33 PM   #2198
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Old 12-03-2018, 07:24 PM   #2199
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Anyone else reckon “Strung out, falling from the big time” is in reference to all the online dialogue about them being past their best? Or am I reaching?
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Old 12-03-2018, 09:10 PM   #2200
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It means the political climate is fucked and we’re heading for WW3.
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Old 12-03-2018, 11:05 PM   #2201
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Anyone else reckon “Strung out, falling from the big time” is in reference to all the online dialogue about them being past their best? Or am I reaching?
It could be so.
If someone from Muse France FB page has submitted a question related to that for the band interview project, I'd be glad.
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Old 13-03-2018, 12:05 AM   #2202
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I really doubt it's a self-aware, self-deprecating statement about how they're chasing an ever more elusive mainstream...

More likely just something vague about how the world is changing, countries are falling out of their past (largely imagined) glory, or just something that sounded good in Matt's head like most of the lyrics.
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Old 13-03-2018, 10:12 AM   #2203
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I don't want you to think I personally disagree with something like this, but it does illustrate my point.
There are some things, no matter how ludicrous, that do need to be discussed from both viewpoints.
We need to figure out our gun situation, but we also need to address it by way of interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, because like it or not, it exists.
To shut down the conservative viewpoint would only cause the pro-gun people to accuse us of fascism and unconstitutionality.
Continuing to shut out the NRA would be a very good start. Happy to see they're already getting hit in the pocketbook.

The only stances I believe aren't deserving of air time are the ones that deal with taking away people's civil liberties based on things like sex, gender, skin color, etc.
Agree to disagree. It's not so much about completely shutting the conservative viewpoint out as the fact that the goal post keeps moving on what a conservative is. It's also worth noting that the left doesn't even get the same exposure. Like I said before, MSNBC is considered left-leaning, but it's full of neoliberals who wanted Clinton over Sanders. Idk, I just think of most political pundits on mainstream news as performers rather than people looking to create substantial debate.

As for Matt, I remember when he was really into the conspiracy stuff, he often couldn't get through an interview without laughing about it. In fairness to him, I feel like the 00s were a very weird time in general where people were naive about a lot of things. I'm not sure how to word this, so I hope it makes sense - One thing I appreciate about Matt is that he has an earnestness to him where he's tried to become more informed even though he's still ignorant and out of touch in several ways. He comes across to me as someone trying to better understand the world, whereas I've noticed other rock stars from his generation are more cocky or pretentious, as if they have all the answers.
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Old 13-03-2018, 10:43 AM   #2204
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I really doubt it's a self-aware, self-deprecating statement about how they're chasing an ever more elusive mainstream...

More likely just something vague about how the world is changing, countries are falling out of their past (largely imagined) glory, or just something that sounded good in Matt's head like most of the lyrics.
I meant more just reiterating/quoting what he sees people say about them as an example of ‘thought contagion’ than owt that in depth tbh. You’re probs right though, I just like the idea of that alt. narrative. Now that I’ve thunk it, I’d actually be really interested in a song on that topic. Hell, maybe even more than one since there’s multiple angles you could tackle it from.
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Old 13-03-2018, 02:27 PM   #2205
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I meant more just reiterating/quoting what he sees people say about them as an example of ¡®thought contagion¡¯ than owt that in depth tbh. You¡¯re probs right though, I just like the idea of that alt. narrative. Now that I¡¯ve thunk it, I¡¯d actually be really interested in a song on that topic. Hell, maybe even more than one since there¡¯s multiple angles you could tackle it from.
Whoa, this so much. Lyrically wise, Matt may even conceive songs as intensely angsty as the ones on Showbiz or Origin.
But I think he currently feels "too" fine to tackle this issues. Provoking further conflict between the band and its own fanbase is probably the last thing he wants now. It's quite of a pity, though, because I like the idea of an artist that challenges their audience's ideas about their image and identity in a significantly creative fashion, no matter how famous they may be.
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