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Old 20-04-2009, 11:22 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by cheddatom View Post
Mixing is a totally different problem to recording, and so we could do with a seperate thread....



I'm working on an album at the moment for my band creep joint. The drums sound great, and bass is my forte, however, i've recorded way too much guitar. 2 close mics and one distant condensor on every guitar take. 2 takes on Tele bridge, 1 take on Tele mixed brige+neck, 1 take on (basically) an LP. Then there's individual takes (still using 3 mics) for effects like octaved guitar, delay guitar. Then i've recorded some acoustic take of the Tele at home (which sounds amazing). Basically I now have one massive mushy mess of electric guitar.

I know that people like to layer up guitars a lot, so my thinking was that it wouldn't sound that bad, and it doesn't, but it's just not biting through the mix. What would you do?
i'd say to save you from insanity, either find which broadband parts of each channels signal you like and isolate them with a good EQ, or start losing some channels that sound shit... wossat? they all sound good? then you'll have no problem only using one of them, right?

i tried to record guitars using too many mics a few times.... imo it /can/ sound okay, but its not worth the effort.. what it takes to get something that is simply phase coherent (let alone sounding good) with 3 mics on a guitar cab is wayy too much effort over yield when compared to a 1 mic on the speaker overdubbed stylee... theres no definition because the guitar does not occupy a specific frequency range, i think you might be getting too much, try and cut it down a bit and show it who's boss... maybe itll play nice then. get the bits you like, lose the rest, and remember it doesnt have to sound amazing in solo mode.
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Old 21-04-2009, 07:01 AM   #17
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Well, first thanks for all the replies.

Half the problem is i'm mixing it with my guitarist in the room, so when I say "we need to get rid of some of these channels" he says "noooo it sounds massive with them all" but if I could just get rid of them without him knowing we'd be OK.

I've currently grouped them by take rather than by mic, so for each take I have a great stereo tone using all three mics. It's just when I add them all back in it's mushy. (they're all high-passed by the way).

At the start of mixing, I was really intimidated by all of the channels of guitar and so I decided (as you've all advised) that we needed to listen to each one and decide which tone was best for which part and use that. It just seems like such a massive task!!

I'm now thinking that as I have a good sound using all three mics, I could group all the channels by mic, and cut the individual takes in and out when they're needed.

anyway, this is why I haven't posted any Creep Joint rough mixes yet. I've got a couple of songs with only 3 layers of guitar on that sound amazing so i'll get them up fairly soon.
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Old 21-04-2009, 12:49 PM   #18
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Get someone to hit you every time you reach for the solo button while EQing. It does a world of good to your mixes :P

Less mics means a more phase coherent, sensible sound. Those distant mics would be adding a lot of mush to the mix. Also, I'm curious about what you mean by stereo? You're not trying to get that big wide guitar sound by panning two mic's from a single take in opposite directions are you? Cause you'll just end up with lots of mushy ghosty centre guitars. That big wide guitar sound comes from 2 separate takes panned L and R. If you want to add more mics for more tone, I would actually consider doing a separate take for each mic position.

Oh and beware, Marshall cabs are wired with the speakers out of phase with each other, if you've mic'd separate speakers that would give you a whole heap of hurt.

Lastly, don't listen to your guitarist about the guitars mix :P
At least not too much, he might not be listening to the entire mix objectively, but instead focussing on his guitar, what I think of as mentally soloing an instrument.
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Old 21-04-2009, 12:56 PM   #19
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+1 Some sound bits of advice there
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Old 21-04-2009, 01:04 PM   #20
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There's lots of good advice on this thread and it'll all be useful in the future, but in relation to my specific problem it would be good to think of me as an "intermediate" level mixer, rather than a beginner.

To get some shit out of the way....

I have tested each mic against each mic and all three in combination to check the phase. I currently have one of the close mics flipped. The close mics are each on one speaker of a 2 x 12". The distant mic isn't VERY distant, it's around 3m from the amp and it sound amazing, especially with some distortion on top.

Each close mic is panned hard L and R and the distant mic is centered. It's not a "massive" or really wide sound in respect to stereo imaging, obviously. It is however, a great tone with some stereo width.

Perhaps a good method would be to take the L mic from one take, the R mic from another take, and the distant/C mic from anothet take.
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Old 21-04-2009, 02:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheddatom View Post
Well, first thanks for all the replies.

Half the problem is i'm mixing it with my guitarist in the room, so when I say "we need to get rid of some of these channels" he says "noooo it sounds massive with them all" but if I could just get rid of them without him knowing we'd be OK.

I've currently grouped them by take rather than by mic, so for each take I have a great stereo tone using all three mics. It's just when I add them all back in it's mushy. (they're all high-passed by the way).

At the start of mixing, I was really intimidated by all of the channels of guitar and so I decided (as you've all advised) that we needed to listen to each one and decide which tone was best for which part and use that. It just seems like such a massive task!!

I'm now thinking that as I have a good sound using all three mics, I could group all the channels by mic, and cut the individual takes in and out when they're needed.

anyway, this is why I haven't posted any Creep Joint rough mixes yet. I've got a couple of songs with only 3 layers of guitar on that sound amazing so i'll get them up fairly soon.
switching between different mic sets with different tonality in parts of a song might be a cool idea.. or automating volume levels on one group while leaving another to produce effects may or may not sound sweet.. beware of teh phase

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
Get someone to hit you every time you reach for the solo button while EQing. It does a world of good to your mixes :P

Less mics means a more phase coherent, sensible sound. Those distant mics would be adding a lot of mush to the mix. Also, I'm curious about what you mean by stereo? You're not trying to get that big wide guitar sound by panning two mic's from a single take in opposite directions are you? Cause you'll just end up with lots of mushy ghosty centre guitars. That big wide guitar sound comes from 2 separate takes panned L and R. If you want to add more mics for more tone, I would actually consider doing a separate take for each mic position.

Oh and beware, Marshall cabs are wired with the speakers out of phase with each other, if you've mic'd separate speakers that would give you a whole heap of hurt.

Lastly, don't listen to your guitarist about the guitars mix :P
At least not too much, he might not be listening to the entire mix objectively, but instead focussing on his guitar, what I think of as mentally soloing an instrument.
good advice with the solo button, though id refine that slightly and say "make someone hit you AFTER youve done initial housekeeping eq with solo on" .. e.g. removing any hiss or nasties.

i never heard anything about marshall cabs being wired out of phase... care to explain why? can i revert mine back to a dual in phase setup? seems a silly thing to do
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Old 21-04-2009, 02:28 PM   #22
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I won't post more about my own mixing before I get chance to play again.. not for a couple of days.


However, one thing I've loved is recording an electric guitar acoustically with a condensor mic. Has anyone else ever done this? Did you love it as much as me? Is this the same sort of sound you get from a peizo bridge?
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Old 21-04-2009, 03:12 PM   #23
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Yeah it's pretty cool, interesting to blend it with the amp recording, is cool to hear some of the pick attack and stuff, like, you kind of really hear the playing
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Old 14-05-2009, 01:30 PM   #24
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I've done a new rough mix of Somnambulist, a song some of you listened to before. This is the album version, un-mastered, with a shit vocal sound so far. Let me know what you think! All opinions welcome, especially on the mix.
Attached Files
File Type: mp3 SOMNAMBULIST.mp3 (4.42 MB, 105 views)
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Old 14-05-2009, 11:27 PM   #25
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Put a stereo track of the band most like your tone.

A/B with that until each guitar has it's own tone you like, the best way to do it is get the sound on the amp then try and get that exact sound into the computer via the mic.

If you have 2 guitars

Duplicate a guitars track, no effects yet, then push forward a few samples or delay it (with 100% mix) and only a few milliseconds, maybe 20-40 delay. Pan each hard Left and Right. (this is a cheap ''wall of sound'' guitar effect)

Now, bring one channel down in volume til it's starting to sound hard to one side, but still not 100% L/R

Do the same with the other guitar only to the opposite side that you pushed the first one.

It leaves this big U shape in the stereo panorama for chucking in drums bass and vocals. Then you start worrying about the depth

The bass guitar may be TOO bassy, you might solo it and think there's no balls to it, but when you get the kit in with that highly comrpessed kick you realise you've got too much bass
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Old 15-05-2009, 01:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisirhC View Post
Duplicate a guitars track, no effects yet, then push forward a few samples or delay it (with 100% mix) and only a few milliseconds, maybe 20-40 delay. Pan each hard Left and Right. (this is a cheap ''wall of sound'' guitar effect)
why have a cheap wall of sound when you can take another 5 minutes to track another guitar part instead? it sounds much better and you avoid the possibility of having dodgy sounding comb filtering that can be introduced by your method... im right against duplicating, panning and delaying a take for that method
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Old 15-05-2009, 01:50 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheddatom View Post
I've done a new rough mix of Somnambulist, a song some of you listened to before. This is the album version, un-mastered, with a shit vocal sound so far. Let me know what you think! All opinions welcome, especially on the mix.
sounds great, really good clear mix. maybe doesnt sound as 'big' as it could during the heavier bits? although i guess the mastering process would help with that..
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Old 15-05-2009, 07:42 AM   #28
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ChrisirhC - The guitars are multi-tracked and panned quite wide on this mix. I don't want to A/B my mix against something else just yet. I tend to do that at the end of the process, and during mastering. I like the guitar tone I have. Is there something you suggest needs changing with it?

The bass might be too bassy, we're going to re-record it on a new bass soon.

Ta for the comments. We should probably get this thread off page two! Who else has some mixes to upload?
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Old 15-05-2009, 09:49 AM   #29
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why have a cheap wall of sound when you can take another 5 minutes to track another guitar part instead? it sounds much better and you avoid the possibility of having dodgy sounding comb filtering that can be introduced by your method... im right against duplicating, panning and delaying a take for that method
Giant +1 on this. It never sounds right if you fake it


lol at what i said ifyou think about it wrong aswell
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Old 15-05-2009, 09:59 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheddatom View Post
I've done a new rough mix of Somnambulist, a song some of you listened to before. This is the album version, un-mastered, with a shit vocal sound so far. Let me know what you think! All opinions welcome, especially on the mix.
I like the kind of mix you're going for with it with the twangy guitars and clipped vocals plus the kinda trashy drums.

But...it seems kinda underpowered from the bass end to work right somehow. I don't know what you other people have listened to this on but for me its not that bassy.

See if you can't compress the bass a bit and bring it up a bit, give it some more at any rate.

I'd probably do a little overall eq'ing to the guitars, maybe just take the hi-pass down a little bit (it sounds like they're hi-passed to me), just give them some more lower mid range just to fatten them out a wee bit.

Also I noticed you've got your toms panned seriously hard left/right and with the way you've panned the rest of the kit (sounds very central to me), it sounds pretty bizarre when you're tom hits come in. Might be worth just bringing them in a bit


Sorry it's not a particularly detailed evaluation i only just got up but it's just my general comments from a couple of listens. It's a really cool song though!
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