Muse Urges Its Fans To Take The Red Pill

[chudenk]

source (http://www.prisonplanet.com/muse-urges-its-fans-to-take-the-red-pill.html)

[Furygirl]

Link doesn't work for me. :erm:

Edit: Googled it: http://www.prisonplanet.com/muse-urges-its-fans-to-take-the-red-pill.html

[weird cOokie]

it doesn't work for me either :erm:

[weird cOokie]

Link doesn't work for me. :erm:

Edit: Googled it: http://www.prisonplanet.com/muse-urges-its-fans-to-take-the-red-pill.html

oh thank you!
interesting reading...

[Furygirl]

FYI, Prison Planet is run by Alex Jones, the Terror Storm guy. He interviewed Matt in 2007. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPOGw7uXAsQ

[haze015]

Last time I did that I was running around dark tunnels listening to repetitive music for hours.

[Niall]

This article is utter nonsense. It's made up from a few links on Muse's site.

That’s why it’s so refreshing to see a truly talented band like Muse singing about important and cutting edge issues and being successful in the process, reaching millions of young people who might otherwise have been trapped in the babylon system of popular culture that is warping young people’s minds and turning them into depressed, disenchanted, powerless, and soulless creatures whose manipulated mindlessness prevents them from even being able to think straight amidst the ceaseless din of the psychological attack they are under from music and popular culture in general.

Hah. Matt's a big as fan of Lady Gaga as anyone.

Also, the article is complete bs.

But anyone with half a brain could work that out at a glance.

[Mizutsu]

Last time I did that I was running around dark tunnels listening to repetitive music for hours.

:erm: Alright then.

[CarrieB]

This article is utter nonsense. It's made up from a few links on Muse's site.



Hah. Matt's a big as fan of Lady Gaga as anyone.

Also, the article is complete bs.

But anyone with half a brain could work that out at a glance.

I don't even know where the links are tbh. Of course we know Matt is interested in this stuff, but this seems to be using Muse for their agenda. What is the "red pill" anyway?

[weird cOokie]

What is the "red pill" anyway?

matrix reference maybe?

[L.]

matrix reference maybe?

That's what I thought too - Matrix reference.

EDIT: found it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhymzx6ovfQ

[control]

Last time I did that I was running around dark tunnels listening to repetitive music for hours.

And good times those were too :happy:

Anyway, this is just what I think of as "conspiracy industry™ spam", trying to score some publicity through a huge mainstream act such as MUSE. The writer probably believes some people might not realize that Matt is not actually in ' The Resistance' .

[haze015]

I don't even know where the links are tbh. Of course we know Matt is interested in this stuff, but this seems to be using Muse for their agenda. What is the "red pill" anyway?

Matrix reference, Neo has to take the red pill to discover the "truth".

If you don't know The Matrix, it would just sound like Muse were encouraging their fans to take illegal drugs and there's all sorts of "truth" to be found there :facepalm:

Also, the Matrix references Alice In Wonderland, commonly believed to be the rantings of an author on hallucinogens...

[Luxemburger Queen]

Ahh Muse wants us to reject Twilight :yesey:

[Mozza]

Taking the red pill makes you realise love is forever and our resistance?

[L.]

Taking the red pill makes you realise love is forever and our resistance?

Jump on my cheesy pill?

No, thank you! :awesome:

[haze015]

Taking the red pill makes you realise love is forever and our resistance?

Ironically this is not far from the truth. :LOL:

[Mozza]

Jump on my cheesy pill?

No, thank you! :awesome:

The red pill is your Guiding Light

The blue pill takes you to Redemption

[weird cOokie]

Taking the red pill makes you realise love is forever and our resistance?

it will reconcile the violence in your heart :yesey:

[eyduh]

Interesting read, but to be honest, Muse make music about conspiracies etc. because they are interested in all that, but they are not publicly asking people to stand up/speak up/take the red/blue/neon/whatever-colour-it-is... I think that the writer either got the wrong message or just wanted to use Muse to attract more people.. :indiff::erm:

[endlessly_blissed]

. What is the "red pill" anyway?

Apparently in The Matrix, if you take the blue pill, you are staying in the state of perpetual bliss per se, whereas when you take the red pill, you're agreeing to the sometimes harsh reality.

To be honest I don't know what to think of this article.

[CarrieB]

I think it is about time I got round to watching the Matrix. I obviously need to be informed.

[endlessly_blissed]

I think it is about time I got round to watching the Matrix. I obviously need to be informed.

I watched the trilogy for the first time a week or so ago. It's worth the watch, imo

[Niall]

I think it is about time I got round to watching the Matrix. I obviously need to be informed.

Yeah it's worthwhile.

The article is just using Muse to push their agenda with little regard for what Muse and Matt actually do and care about.

I think the author must have been living down a rabbit hole to miss Muse taking that massive running jump of the commercial juggernaut we know as Twilight.

[Novus Dies]

They release Resistance then NSC then preach about worthless music.

Oh dear Matt :LOL:

[celesteluvsmuse]

It [B]totally worked for me! Thanks for sharing!

[i.wish.i.RAWR!]

They release Resistance then NSC then preach about worthless music.

Oh dear Matt :LOL:

Except that it wasn't Matt or Muse preaching about worthless music, it was the writer of the article. :erm:

[CarrieB]

Except that it wasn't Matt or Muse preaching about worthless music, it was the writer of the article. :erm:

And neither The Resistance of NSC are worthless music.

[melon]

The red pill is your Guiding Light

The blue pill takes you to Redemption

........Is there another pill? :(

I don't want either :LOL:

[sweet1pearl]

Its some interview thing, here is the link where I found it :happy:

http://erato1.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/prisonplanet-com-muse-urges-its-fans-to-take-the-red-pill/

[polandspring]

The original article was already posted

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

http://board.muse.mu/showthread.php?t=77311

;)

[Mistress]

Don't listen to rap music, got it :awesome:

[jessychickin]

Hoohoo I,m not a fan of Lady Gaga,I like radio Gaga....btw anyone knows in what flavours the red pill comes?...,strawberry or cherry:LOL:

... I certainly hope its strawberry! :chuckle:

I honestly don't know what to say about the article :stunned:

[pinkfloyddsotm]

i just read about this on the infowars site, cool stuff that muse is getting props from AJ and his team.

[haze015]

As we have previously documented, music and popular culture is the most powerful weapon the elite wield in keeping the masses distracted, dumbed down and morally bankrupt. Amoral, vacuous and nihilistic drivel from the likes of Lady Gaga, Beyonce, Christina Aguilera, Rihanna and Katy Perry keeps young women obsessed with meaningless drivel while thinking that it’s mandatory to dress and act like a whore to be accepted by their peers, while the endless parade of moronic hip-hop artists, people like Puff Daddy, Kanye West, Jay-Z, 50-cent and Lil Wayne brainwash young men into thinking that acting like a superficial, moronic, money-obsessed, sex-obsessed thug who wears their pants round their knees and treats women like pieces of meat is cool.

The new world order attack on our society is about more than politics, money, and power – it’s about stealing the minds of our own children and filling them with self-destructive, humanist, post-modernist, spiritually devoid crap that destroys their innocence, their hope, their strength of character and their moral compass.

:facepalm:

So Muse want to associate themselves with a pro-Christian agenda masquerading as the "truth" about the "New World Order"?

[Dillyracer]

And neither The Resistance of NSC are worthless music.

Seems like you just met Novus Dies!

[Kuutar]

I guess the source says it all.

:facepalm:

[macgivera]

I guess the source says it all.

:facepalm:

But...Muse have this site in links on it's official page, and it's not reliable source ?

[arod77]

embarrassing.

embarrassing and stupid.

[bILLOO]

And neither The Resistance of NSC are worthless music.

The latter is, for sure. :LOL:

[Novus Dies]

And neither The Resistance of NSC are worthless music.

Ok, I agree in HMV or w/e there'll be a price on it yea :rolleyes:

[jbyun04]

the fans urge muse to pay attention to the freaking setlist polls

[hikaru_bloom]

When I first looked I read the title of the thread as "Muse urges its fans to take THE pill" :LOL:
And I thought there was some kind of support for birth-control methods :facepalm:


Ahh Muse wants us to reject Twilight :yesey:

:D

[nick913]

:LOL:

the worlds going fucking crazy

[pokemew]

When I first looked I read the title of the thread as "Muse urges its fans to take THE pill" :LOL:
And I thought there was some kind of support for birth-control methods :facepalm:

:chuckle: ahah



really? the red pill? WE WANT MORPHEUS! :phu:

[nohopeinfear]

I urge Chris' wife to take the pill, then she wouldn't keep getting bloody pregnant everytime Chris licks his lips in her direction!

[pokemew]

I urge Chris' wife to take the pill, then she wouldn't keep getting bloody pregnant everytime Chris licks his lips in her direction!

:yesey:

[a-museing]

I urge Chris' wife to take the pill, then she wouldn't keep getting bloody pregnant everytime Chris licks his lips in her direction!

:chuckle:

[hyper_chondriac_muser]

Clearly the person who wrote this article hasn't heard Neutron Star Collision or Guiding Light yet :LOL: :p.

I dunno where these alleged four links to prisonplanet.com and other 'conspiracy' websites are on muse.mu, but they've hardly caused an uprising ('scuse the pun) or even a real 'resistance' among fans... most people (on here, at least) are big fans of Lady Gaga anyways - including our Bells, who seems to admire and emulate her crazy wardrobe :chuckle:.

Anyways, as much as some of what's written holds some elements of truth, these sorts of sites are a bit far-fetched for my liking. On a separate (and geeky) note, I'm also none-too-pleased that they decided to make Muse a collective noun; I'm in the Muse ARE camp, not Muse IS. :phu:.

[xuwang]

I urge Chris' wife to take the pill, then she wouldn't keep getting bloody pregnant everytime Chris licks his lips in her direction!

you sir, you are awesome!:LOL:

[MuseRLegend]

And neither The Resistance of NSC are worthless music.

Well said. THey might be different from the heavier stuff (and alright, I prefer OoS) but they are still worthy of Muse.

And I'd take the red pill anyday! The Matrix is amazing :D as are Muse

[pinkfrenchie1]

The links are here http://muse.mu/other-links/

:shifty:

[jack259]

I actually believe some of this...

[Niall]

I actually believe some of this...

That's a bit of a silly thing to do.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

people need to calm the fuck down, this is just a simple case of teenage girl excitment that a massive band like muse are refering to them (infowars/prisonplanet) and it has got the office boys of infowars excited so they've done a piece giving muse props back, Its nothing new, muse and aussie band cog have being promoted on their website for speaking out against the NWO tyrants before. To all the people who are saying this is "crazy" , the further you go into the rabbit hole, the scarier it gets, stuff that isnt under any normal persons comprehension level makes perfect sense and shatters your reality.
Chances are matt bellamy would anilate any doubters on this MB with TRUTH and FACTS.
Say what you want that makes you sleep easier at night.
"In a world of universal deciet,Telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - Thomas Jefferson

matt bellamy is spot on and i respect his song writing and being brave enough to voice his opinions in a society that is quick to judge and demonize alternitive thinkers as "crazy conspiracy theorists" , which i hate that term.

[AnyColourYouLike]

I agree, pinkfloyddsotm' And nice username! :)

[Niall]

people need to calm the fuck down, this is just a simple case of teenage girl excitment that a massive band like muse are refering to them (infowars/prisonplanet) and it has got the office boys of infowars excited so they've done a piece giving muse props back, Its nothing new, muse and aussie band cog have being promoted on their website for speaking out against the NWO tyrants before. To all the people who are saying this is "crazy" , the further you go into the rabbit hole, the scarier it gets, stuff that isnt under any normal persons comprehension level makes perfect sense and shatters your reality.
Chances are matt bellamy would anilate any doubters on this MB with TRUTH and FACTS.
Say what you want that makes you sleep easier at night.
"In a world of universal deciet,Telling the truth is a revolutionary act" - Thomas Jefferson

matt bellamy is spot on and i respect his song writing and being brave enough to voice his opinions in a society that is quick to judge and demonize alternitive thinkers as "crazy conspiracy theorists" , which i hate that term.

No, but you usually are crazy conspiracy theorists. The more you listen to lunatics like Alex Jones the more indoctrinated you get until you can't see the wood for the trees. Saying it's beyond "any normal persons comprehension" only serves to make you look even more ridiculous. You miss the real crimes in society in favour of made up stories that are more exotic and science fictiony. It does an even greater disservice from the truth by detracting attention from the real problems in the world.

This thread is pretty much junk so if you want to bring some of your reality shattering truths up feel free.

And also, Matt really doesn't buy into to all these crazy conspiracy theories. He has distanced himself from most of them now. It was just a gimmick, like it should be.

[jack259]

That's a bit of a silly thing to do.

I guess. I can see both sides of the argument. I just don't know which I'm on.

And there's no point in people saying 'Matt thinks this, Matt thinks that' because no one knows what he think and he constantly contradicts himself

[vinya12]

I love this article. I could have wrote it my self. You only have to looks at face book and see all the teen girls who all look the same and think you have to be sexy. kids are so obsessed with looks and being cool that they don't have time to look at the big picture. But that's what the corporates want. Keep us busy so we look the other way. Not like the 60s 70s where teens wanted to take over the world and stop war. Hippy s I salute you. Or in the 80s ware rock music sent a message about how to be proud of who you are and not try to fit in a box. What dose music tell kids today? . You have to look sexy all the time, and be popular. . Muse are the only band I know that are shouting out to the kids saying wake up, .
As conspiracies unwind
Will you slam shut
Or free your mind
Or stay hypnotised

[Gareeh]

well it would be rather embarrassing if matt told everyone to take the blue pill, lolz.

[nohopeinfear]

well it would be rather embarrassing if matt told everyone to take the blue pill, lolz.

Yeah, we'd all be walking around with stiffies for hours and the women would down a pint and punch out a student.

We're talking about Viagra right? :erm:

http://exiledonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/viagra.jpg

[jack259]

I love this article. I could have wrote it my self. You only have to looks at face book and see all the teen girls who all look the same and think you have to be sexy. kids are so obsessed with looks and being cool that they don't have time to look at the big picture. But that's what the corporates want. Keep us busy so we look the other way. Not like the 60s 70s where teens wanted to take over the world and stop war. Hippy s I salute you. Or in the 80s ware rock music sent a message about how to be proud of who you are and not try to fit in a box. What dose music tell kids today? . You have to look sexy all the time, and be popular. . Muse are the only band I know that are shouting out to the kids saying wake up, .
As conspiracies unwind
Will you slam shut
Or free your mind
Or stay hypnotised

This is kind of true. I think a lot of things today are highly sexualised. Although I wasn't around 30/40 years ago so I cant comment on what it was like then...

[pinkfloyddsotm]

No, but you usually are crazy conspiracy theorists. The more you listen to lunatics like Alex Jones the more indoctrinated you get until you can't see the wood for the trees. Saying it's beyond "any normal persons comprehension" only serves to make you look even more ridiculous. You miss the real crimes in society in favour of made up stories that are more exotic and science fictiony. It does an even greater disservice from the truth by detracting attention from the real problems in the world.

This thread is pretty much junk so if you want to bring some of your reality shattering truths up feel free.

And also, Matt really doesn't buy into to all these crazy conspiracy theories. He has distanced himself from most of them now. It was just a gimmick, like it should be.

i know i deleted my original post, only because i thought " fuck it" im sick of trying to argue my point, i believe when the time is right you'll realise that the " conspiracy theorists" have being right all along, this is something i cannot force other people to see, it's something of a natural progression into alternitive politics and seeing through the bullshit, its more of a deep curiosity for the truth and who the fuck runs this joint . If you dont want to take an open minded look at "conspiracy theories" or "made up stories" which you call them , (by the way AJ must go to ALOT of trouble to make up all these stories that are featured on his website everyday) then to each his own. i dont give a fuck.

i was speaking more from my self experience because it did shatter my perception of reality,hearing ickes own take on this matrix reality we live in , i watch ALOT of this stuff but doesnt mean i believe 100% of it, i just love hearing other outside thinkers thoughts on this stuff. Its interesting.

[CarrieB]

No, but you usually are crazy conspiracy theorists. The more you listen to lunatics like Alex Jones the more indoctrinated you get until you can't see the wood for the trees. Saying it's beyond "any normal persons comprehension" only serves to make you look even more ridiculous. You miss the real crimes in society in favour of made up stories that are more exotic and science fictiony. It does an even greater disservice from the truth by detracting attention from the real problems in the world.

This thread is pretty much junk so if you want to bring some of your reality shattering truths up feel free.

And also, Matt really doesn't buy into to all these crazy conspiracy theories. He has distanced himself from most of them now. It was just a gimmick, like it should be.

Personally I think that Matt does still believe some of this stuff has grounds. Probably some of it has. I don't think Muse use it as a gimmick. But I don't get the impression that he's as blinkered as some of the people who come on declaring all of it as the truth. I reckon he's open minded and I think everyone should be. In discarding every conspiracy theory there is a danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater because the distortion of the truth goes on all the time. Saying that I'm pretty sure myself there is no such thing as a NWO. There is no such thing as an illuminati who brainwash people. There is a natural elite in society - the people who are born with the silver spoon in their mouths and get the most opportunities; there are power struggles which involve corruption at times; and there is Capitalism which favours the powerful.

[Lady Jessica]

I'm also none-too-pleased that they decided to make Muse a collective noun; I'm in the Muse ARE camp, not Muse IS. :phu:.

But there is only one Muse!

[jack259]

This is kind of true. I think a lot of things today are highly sexualised. Although I wasn't around 30/40 years ago so I cant comment on what it was like then...

And that it's done to keep people dumbed down.

I'm young and naive and I don't really know what to believe in. Although there is definatly more than meets the eye in this world.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Saying that I'm pretty sure myself there is no such thing as a NWO. There is no such thing as an illuminati who brainwash people.

ok i was agreeing with you all the way up till what ive quoted..Is this enough evidence for you to believe the hidden elite rulers of the world want to create a NWO ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Fo1zEjCRw

and please PLEASE read this before saying theirs no brainwashing on the public.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

[vinya12]

If you want to understand what's going to happen in the future you must first study the past. There is so much you can learn from history.
Power and control over the people gos way back . The scary thing is, that they now know how to do it in a way we wont object.
Mind control is to make people think they are happy and want the things that are happening. That way they wont try and stop it. For kids its easy feed them with TV games and internet . Give them toys to keep they happy and have them worrying about looking good and being cool. It keeps them dumb and unaware of what's happening. If they don't care ,they wont be in the way. Don't study politics kids its boring. Or is that want they want you to think ?

[OUTTA-TIME]

If you want to understand what's going to happen in the future you must first study the past. There is so much you can learn from history.
Power and control over the people gos way back . The scary thing is, that they now know how to do it in a way we wont object.
Mind control is to make people think they are happy and want the things that are happening. That way they wont try and stop it. For kids its easy feed them with TV games and internet . Give them toys to keep they happy and have them worrying about looking good and being cool. It keeps them dumb and unaware of what's happening. If they don't care ,they wont be in the way. Don't study politics kids its boring. Or is that want they want you to think ?


I must say I agree with this. Also, those old signs I think from around ww2, "Keep calm and carry on". Don't you think they're a bit sinister? As in "No need to worry! Everything's fine, you go about your lives just like the rest of you ignorant puppets...we're in control, we'll take care of things around here." ..Or is that just me being paranoid? :LOL:

[pinkfloyddsotm]

If you want to understand what's going to happen in the future you must first study the past. There is so much you can learn from history.
Power and control over the people gos way back . The scary thing is, that they now know how to do it in a way we wont object.
Mind control is to make people think they are happy and want the things that are happening. That way they wont try and stop it. For kids its easy feed them with TV games and internet . Give them toys to keep they happy and have them worrying about looking good and being cool. It keeps them dumb and unaware of what's happening. If they don't care ,they wont be in the way. Don't study politics kids its boring. Or is that want they want you to think ?

Finally someone talking some sense apart from me :LOL:, i love how this thread is turning out, finally a topic thats in my neck of the woods.

[CarrieB]

ok i was agreeing with you all the way up till what ive quoted..Is this enough evidence for you to believe the hidden elite rulers of the world want to create a NWO ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3Fo1zEjCRw

and please PLEASE read this before saying theirs no brainwashing on the public.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

Right okay, this is my understanding. I am aware that I'm only partly informed as I haven't thoroughly investigated the stuff on these sites, and I'm not at a high academic level in relation to the sociological aspects yet. But anyway the first video appears to me to be a collection of clips which have been deliberately put together in a sensationalist form to make an entity appear to exist which doesn't. What I think is being quoted is political rhetoric. The NWO these politicians are referring to is change to make improvement, deal with problems or adjustment to globalisation. It's not an entity, it's a condition. The world is always changing and adjustment is needed. Politicians often promise some kind of utopia which they are never able to deliver. But basically I think the idea is to recognise a new epoch. Yes propaganda will be involved and yes there are some with less than helpful outlooks, and there are elites and it's important to attempt to recognise that, but there isn't one body of people who are ruling the world, in cooperation with each other with the motive of gaining ultimate power over the people.

I am suspicious of the agenda behind someone who is deliberately attempting to manufacturer this delusion and confused by it. Maybe he really believes it but it looks more likely to me that there is a right wing, anti-socialist agenda underlying it. When you see this sensationalist stuff you should quickly be suspicious, because the reality of the situation is most likely to be a lot more mundane.

The second piece is interesting as it's a direct switch to Marxist type outlook and a lot of it I agree with. By that I'm saying it reflects neomarxist ideas of what damages society. Brainwashing is a crude term for it though. What it is referring to is advertising and propaganda and the power of conglomerates. But the distortion is that this isn't a manipulation by a small group of people (the illuminati or NWO) though the result is that a few gain huge power, it is the result of profit making and material wealth being seen as an ultimate goal in life which outweighs all other. It's about money and Capitalism. Where the interlink between government and corporations comes in is in the power relationships. Some of these corporations have as much money as a whole country. Not only does it mean that they have the highest degree of resources at their disposal to lobby government but they also have the leverage in where they choose to employ people and thus can have an effect on the economy of individual countries.

I'm pretty passionate about people opening their minds to this sort of stuff. However I would also say that I think society is a lot more complex than there being one overarching factor and people are more complicated too, than simply being pawns. The whole thing is entwined. People influence what happens in society as well as the the society around them influencing them.

As for the "conspiracy theorists", maybe if I start thinking this stuff is a right wing conspiracy to undermine left wing movements, I'm doing the same as them, maybe it is simply Libertarianism, but I do wonder why someone like Alex Jones would latch on to this. What seems to me to be a blurring between legitimate theories and facts and bizarre propaganda is confusing and not particularly helpful in the goal of producing an informed population. Has that type of thing always been part of his propaganda?

Corruption no doubt exists but basically there is no such thing as a perfect system.

[CarrieB]

If you want to understand what's going to happen in the future you must first study the past. There is so much you can learn from history.
Power and control over the people gos way back . The scary thing is, that they now know how to do it in a way we wont object.
Mind control is to make people think they are happy and want the things that are happening. That way they wont try and stop it. For kids its easy feed them with TV games and internet . Give them toys to keep they happy and have them worrying about looking good and being cool. It keeps them dumb and unaware of what's happening. If they don't care ,they wont be in the way. Don't study politics kids its boring. Or is that want they want you to think ?

Actually I watched an interesting programme by Richard Dawkins on religious school segregation, and while this is a slightly different topic, what a psychologist doing a study found was that children are predisposed to believe that naturally occuring things have been designed for a purpose. They thought it was down to being surrounded by manmade things that have. So for instance when asked whether ripples in a river were due to water moving in from another source or it was to keep the animals in the river cool, the majority of children answered that they thought it was to keep the animals cool. Thus Richard Dawkins concluded that religious indocrination has an unfair advantage as we are already psychologically predisposed to believe in a creator. I thought about conspiracy theorists then, because the idea that things which occur in society are the result of a mega plan, is very similar. While these things are occurring they are the result of random motives not the result of some big conspiracy. There is no one sitting in a big white chair like Dr No, conspiring to take over the world. Not to say that you don't get megalomaniacs but it's not that simple.

[vinya12]

The idea behind a n.w.o.is to have a one world government. A government that's in change of the world rather than septate government for septate countrey's
This government will control not just how we live but also control population.
Keeping the population down and under control . .
This is something that's being worked on and has been worked on for a long time.

Once a long time ago you would have lived on some land that was passed to you from family. You would grow your own food, raise chickens and hunt for food. It was hard work but you were free.

One day a king decided the land was his and ordered you to pay taxes on the land. If you could not afford this, your house was burnt down and you could be killed. This was control.
We have been so domesticated now that we live in box houses and buy food from a shop. Most of us cant hunt and don't Know how to grow food, most of us are foresd to work in jobs we hate to make money to pay the government and buy food that is wrapped up ready to go. We are no longer free but slaves to the government . But we are happy as long as we got TV and a mobile phone.
If we don't stand up and be counted, there will come a time when you cant even buy a house or choose were we live , or is that now?

[Gareeh]

Yeah, we'd all be walking around with stiffies for hours and the women would down a pint and punch out a student.

We're talking about Viagra right? :erm:



yep :happy:

[CarrieB]

The idea behind a n.w.o.is to have a one world government. A government that's in change of the world rather than septate government for septate countrey's
This government will control not just how we live but also control population.
Keeping the population down and under control . .
This is something that's being worked on and has been worked on for a long time.

Once a long time ago you would have lived on some land that was passed to you from family. You would grow your own food, raise chickens and hunt for food. It was hard work but you were free.

One day a king decided the land was his and ordered you to pay taxes on the land. If you could not afford this, your house was burnt down and you could be killed. This was control.
We have been so domesticated now that we live in box houses and buy food from a shop. Most of us cant hunt and don't Know how to grow food, most of us are foresd to work in jobs we hate to make money to pay the government and buy food that is wrapped up ready to go. We are no longer free but slaves to the government . But we are happy as long as we got TV and a mobile phone.
If we don't stand up and be counted, there will come a time when you cant even buy a house or choose were we live , or is that now?

I agree with a lot of this but again one major problem is the idea that there is a world elite with the capacity to organise this one world government. I have been researching this more this afternoon, and, I accept, on the basis of what I have read so far, mainly on an academic site, that the first Bush administration had plans for world domination and it seems plausible that Bush jnr followed suit, and this appears to be based on an ethnocentric position that the American outlook is the right one. But there are also different definitions of what New World Order is. It appears that basically it is used to define the the period of history which has followed the cold war (maybe it should be called New World Disorder) and that there have been various ideas of how international relations should progress under the western philosophy of liberty and freedom. Bush snr used the phrase to refer to a world government led by America, but also as a rhetoric to justify war. However following the unilateral invasion of Iraq, America is in a less powerful position internationally. More recently Gordon Brown used the definition to mean the use of Keynesian style economics and embracing China and India as major economic forces. (Correct me if I am wrong on this - it's what I have read). Thus it isn't a clear concept. It's a rhetorical phrase. And this is only from wikipaedia but more recently right wing elements have jumped on the concept, in order to address their fears of a large state and the threat of totalitarianism.

What I think is, that it is right to be concerned and not to be totally dismissive as there are power groups which do things for less than desirable motives. But where this comes unstuck is in the idea of one power group which infiltrates all levels of society. If people think that President Obama, for example, is going to be the least bit connected with what happens in a Lady Gaga video, I'm sure they are wrong. Capitalism has some undesirable affects as have been described, and if governments facilitate it and ignore other options then they are partly responsible for those affects, but I very much doubt that they actually deliberately design those affects in order to use them for their agenda.

[Davinq]

The new world order attack on our society is about more than politics, money, and power – it’s about stealing the minds of our own children and filling them with self-destructive, humanist, post-modernist, spiritually devoid crap that destroys their innocence, their hope, their strength of character and their moral compass.

I find that quite offensive. Since when was humanism a bad thing? And since when were Muse on the other side of that spectrum?

[CarrieB]

I find that quite offensive. Since when was humanism a bad thing? And since when were Muse on the other side of that spectrum?

Good point. I just re-read it and there's something uncomfortable about the second part of the article. I can't quite put my finger on it, but it sounds like a right wing moral crusade. I picked up a similar feeling from the David Icke site.

Though Matt has spoken about shallow being the new currency and I agree with him that there is dumbing down happening as commercial enterprises pick the cheapest most, widely profitable avenues, I really don't get the impression some of the article is the kind of stuff that Muse would want to be associated with.

And this is what I'm trying to get my head round. I have the image of a right wing organisation saying:

This is what we created for you (as commercialism is generally the result of right wing policies). Now we are going to attack it in order to manipulate you into believing that the real villain is the kind of society we overturned. But Bush administrations were also right wing so I'm not sure whether I'm mistaking their motivations.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

The idea behind a n.w.o.is to have a one world government. A government that's in change of the world rather than septate government for septate countrey's
This government will control not just how we live but also control population.
Keeping the population down and under control . .
This is something that's being worked on and has been worked on for a long time.

Once a long time ago you would have lived on some land that was passed to you from family. You would grow your own food, raise chickens and hunt for food. It was hard work but you were free.

One day a king decided the land was his and ordered you to pay taxes on the land. If you could not afford this, your house was burnt down and you could be killed. This was control.
We have been so domesticated now that we live in box houses and buy food from a shop. Most of us cant hunt and don't Know how to grow food, most of us are foresd to work in jobs we hate to make money to pay the government and buy food that is wrapped up ready to go. We are no longer free but slaves to the government . But we are happy as long as we got TV and a mobile phone.
If we don't stand up and be counted, there will come a time when you cant even buy a house or choose were we live , or is that now?

Shouls we be putting our tinfoil hats on about now?

[hyper_chondriac_muser]

Personally I think that Matt does still believe some of this stuff has grounds. Probably some of it has. I don't think Muse use it as a gimmick. But I don't get the impression that he's as blinkered as some of the people who come on declaring all of it as the truth. I reckon he's open minded and I think everyone should be. In discarding every conspiracy theory there is a danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater because the distortion of the truth goes on all the time. Saying that I'm pretty sure myself there is no such thing as a NWO. There is no such thing as an illuminati who brainwash people. There is a natural elite in society - the people who are born with the silver spoon in their mouths and get the most opportunities; there are power struggles which involve corruption at times; and there is Capitalism which favours the powerful.

There's a lot in this that I agree with. I like to keep an open mind, but I'm still quite grounded. Nonetheless, I think there's a lot of 'subtle' brainwashing going on, but it's hardly a new concept - i.e. the government feeding people what they want us to know via the media; corporations, politicians and the world's bureaucrats are the ones in power, so they can be the 'puppet masters' of society. They can pass their codes, laws and regulations; conceal a lot of the truth or disclose only parts of it, safe in the knowledge that the general public won't protest (much). It's largely why there's such corruption in a lot of developing countries - fear is a powerful tool that many govts and leaders used before (Hitler, Saddam, Stalin etc.) to keep people subdued and obedient. To keep them docile. Imo, this is still going on across the world, it's just been refined and sophisticated in the West, like an underhanded and ironically classier way of stunning the masses, as opposed to being overtly depraved and illicit, like many areas of the East.

But there is only one Muse!

Yes, but 'Muse' refers to more than one individual that make up one band. Muse ARE Matt, Dom and Chris. It can work as a collective noun, which is what the website has used, but it just sounds wrong, imo. You wouldn't say 'The Killers urges its fans to take the red pill', because their name is plural, but it's the same concept.

[Rage Kitty]

http://i31.tinypic.com/r8ujb5.gif

[Davinq]

There's a lot in this that I agree with. I like to keep an open mind, but I'm still quite grounded. Nonetheless, I think there's a lot of 'subtle' brainwashing going on, but it's hardly a new concept - i.e. the government feeding people what they want us to know via the media; corporations, politicians and the world's bureaucrats are the ones in power, so they can be the 'puppet masters' of society. They can pass their codes, laws and regulations; conceal a lot of the truth or disclose only parts of it, safe in the knowledge that the general public won't protest (much). It's largely why there's such corruption in a lot of developing countries - fear is a powerful tool that many govts and leaders used before (Hitler, Saddam, Stalin etc.) to keep people subdued and obedient. To keep them docile. Imo, this is still going on across the world, it's just been refined and sophisticated in the West, like an underhanded and ironically classier way of stunning the masses, as opposed to being overtly depraved and illicit, like many areas of the East.

I tend to disagree with people who say the government controls the media. True, there are the occasional grand reveals when the CIA has been discovered to have hired journalists to write on the behalf of the government, but the main drive is, crazily enough, money. They know what the people like to watch and give it to them. Crazy stuff boosts the ratings, and they win dough.

Because people are biased though, and that bias finds its way into news stories (eg Faux News), peoples' minds can be easily influenced by what they are told to be true. At the stage where they realise it should be taken with a grain of salt, the next conclusion is somehow 'OMG GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY', which while plausible, isn't logical. It's just good business, with a sprinkle of human error.

That sounds like a lot of generalising when I edit through it. :erm:

*snip*

:LOL:

[whatchaoskills]

Also, the Matrix references Alice In Wonderland, commonly believed to be the rantings of an author on hallucinogens...

The white rabbit???


This article was absolutely pointless. I want my 5 minutes back!!!!!!!!

[sazzrah]

When I first looked I read the title of the thread as "Muse urges its fans to take THE pill" :LOL:
And I thought there was some kind of support for birth-control methods :facepalm:

I thought it said 'Muse urges its fans to take chill pill'. I figured they had finally responded to all the bleating going on about the set lists. :p

They release Resistance then NSC then preach about worthless music.

Oh dear Matt :LOL:

Get back under your bridge.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

I tend to disagree with people who say the government controls the media. True, there are the occasional grand reveals when the CIA has been discovered to have hired journalists to write on the behalf of the government, but the main drive is, crazily enough, money. They know what the people like to watch and give it to them. Crazy stuff boosts the ratings, and they win dough.

Because people are biased though, and that bias finds its way into news stories (eg Faux News), peoples' minds can be easily influenced by what they are told to be true. At the stage where they realise it should be taken with a grain of salt, the next conclusion is somehow 'OMG GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY', which while plausible, isn't logical. It's just good business, with a sprinkle of human error.

That sounds like a lot of generalising when I edit through it. :erm:



:LOL:

but people got to realise we dont live in a fantasy world, the government dont give a shit about us , they're are scared of us, which is why they like to try & control us and know everything we are doing and thinking, hence more and more draconian laws to know your everymove and thinking habits, everything is tracked & profiled, because if you think about it, if the public was to start an uprising, all hell would break loose, we outnumber them and this sort of stuff goes on everyday in third world countries where they are fighting government tyranny, the root of all evil is money, so you follow the money trail, and it all leads to big banking corporations that are in bed with governments, elite businessman that have huge influential power of media to push fear mongering propaganda like global warming or swine flu. You got to remember money and power is the main reason behind all of this, but the topic of the NWO is SO diverse it leads into secret societies, occult teachings, esoteric religious teachings that elite bloodlines only privileged to know and heaps more.
Once people realise theirs something like 6 people that run all the media corporations in the world you see how this systemic power structure works, and it how it trickles down through the mainstream media, i just dont get how people can be ok with how controlled and structured our lives are, as long as people are continuing to squabble about irrelevent subjects like fashion, celebrity goss,sports, irrelevent political dribble , It's all a major distraction, Dont People want to know why each year elite businessman and top political and government figures from countries meet secretly to discuss things unknown to the public? sounds sketchy to me, its also an act of treason ,and mainstream media will never publicise it ...look if anyone doubts what ive said i can provide links to mainstream articles about anything ive said , basically what im trying to say is now that my eyes have been opened the last couple of years , everything is not what it seems anymore, i see through their disguises and rhetoric and see scams for what they are, its just healthy to question EVERYTHING, do your own research and make your OWN mind up, dont let mainstream media tell you how its gonna be .

i couldnt believe their are still people that deny the NWO , i thought it was mainstream news that the NWO agenda is real, and they are still working on implenting it . Please watch the jason bermas/alex jones film " invisible empire- a NWO defined" and it explains everything going way back in time explaining the history and ideaology of it. I feel like i havent even scratched the surface on this subject.
i should stop being so serious.:LOL:

[vinya12]

I love you pinkfloyddsotm. :)
I love to hear that there are people out there who have there eyes open.
how do you get a WORD to be excepted so that when its used in the right content people dont get worried. simple, slip it in to everyday news. use it in speeches of less important things. soon The word N.W.O wont even make you turn your head .

If anyone think the UK goverment are running the UK , think again. there dont have a say cuz they have to kiss the ass of the USA .

[Niall]

:LOL:

The Government. Which one? There's hundreds of the things!

Global warming and swine flu are propaganda? :LOL:

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

:facepalm: this is the kind of shite that gets pushed when Bellamy pretends to care about stuff like conspiracy theories. One day he'll go back to writing songs about being in space and we can have the Zeta nutters back, at least they weren't persistent.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

:LOL:

The Government. Which one? There's hundreds of the things!

Global warming and swine flu are propaganda? :LOL:

global warming is just a front for a global carbon tax that will make al gore and governments even richer , their will be companies that are set up to handle the carbon credits who will make hundreds of millions and guess who's in charge of that , Al Gore.

Swine flu is no worse than the usual winter cold , its also just a simple case of fear mongering so everyone gets vaccinated with the H1N1 vaccine that has been known to cause narcolepsy and numerous other serious side effects, not to mention it contains mercury and thimerosal . West Australian newspaper even did an article warning parents AGAINST the vaccination after it led to nearly 50 kids under 5yrs old becomming seriously ill . once again i can provide links for all my claims , just cant be fucked digging them up.

propaganda is basically used to pursuade and influence the ideaology of the public, i know what i said didnt make sense entirely lol but i just sort of explained it easier for you NIALL

[pinkfloyddsotm]

I love you pinkfloyddsotm. :)
I love to hear that there are people out there who have there eyes open.
how do you get a WORD to be excepted so that when its used in the right content people dont get worried. simple, slip it in to everyday news. use it in speeches of less important things. soon The word N.W.O wont even make you turn your head .

If anyone think the UK goverment are running the UK , think again. there dont have a say cuz they have to kiss the ass of the USA .

yer ive read how bad the UK is ,with the rise of the police state , and cctv on every corner soon to have biometric iris scanning technology thats currently being implemented in mexico right now .
"Biometrics R&D firm Global Rainmakers Inc. (GRI) announced today that it is rolling out its iris scanning technology to create what it calls “the most secure city in the world.” In a partnership with Leon — one of the largest cities in Mexico, with a population of more than a million — GRI will fill the city with eye-scanners. That will help law enforcement revolutionize the way we live — not to mention marketers.

“In the future, whether it’s entering your home, opening your car, entering your workspace, getting a pharmacy prescription refilled, or having your medical records pulled up, everything will come off that unique key that is your iris,” says Jeff Carter, CDO of Global Rainmakers. Before coming to GRI, Carter headed a think tank partnership between Bank of America, Harvard, and MIT. “Every person, place, and thing on this planet will be connected [to the iris system] within the next 10 years,” he says.

Leon is the first step. To implement the system, the city is creating a database of irises. Criminals will automatically be enrolled, their irises scanned once convicted. Law-abiding citizens will have the option to opt-in.”

[Niall]

global warming is just a front for a global carbon tax that will make al gore and governments even richer , their will be companies that are set up to handle the carbon credits who will make hundreds of millions and guess who's in charge of that , Al Gore.

Swine flu is no worse than the usual winter cold , its also just a simple case of fear mongering so everyone gets vaccinated with the H1N1 vaccine that has been known to cause narcolepsy and numerous other serious side effects, not to mention it contains mercury and thimerosal . West Australian newspaper even did an article warning parents AGAINST the vaccination after it led to nearly 50 kids under 5yrs old becomming seriously ill . once again i can provide links for all my claims , just cant be fucked digging them up.

propaganda is basically used to pursuade and influence the ideaology of the public, i know what i said didnt make sense entirely lol but i just sort of explained it easier for you NIALL

Oh lordy. Whatever then. There isn't any point in me even trying to explain to you why global warming is indeed real because you're not going to listen to it are you? Who gives a damn about science when there are tenuous political motives to to sensationalise?

And as for Swine Flu vaccines. Right :LOL: because vaccines can cause narcolepsy. Where was that even published? I don't mean some local Australian newspaper, what with their cutting edge medical research I know, I mean scientific literature. I'd be interested to see the mechanism behind that.

Btw, I'd be quick. I'm entertaining this kind of discussion at my lessure because it doesn't belong on this message board, but I like to be entertained and see what the latest fantasies are. We pretty much have a zero tolerance attitude to conspiracy theorists here.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

We're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
We're not scare mongering
This is really happening
Happening
Mobiles quirking
Mobiles chirping
Take the money and run
Take the money and run
Take the money

:chuckle:

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Oh lordy. Whatever then. There isn't any point in me even trying to explain to you why global warming is indeed real because you're not going to listen to it are you? Who gives a damn about science when there are tenuous political motives to to sensationalise?

And as for Swine Flu vaccines. Right :LOL: because vaccines can cause narcolepsy. Where was that even published? I don't mean some local Australian newspaper, what with their cutting edge medical research I know, I mean scientific literature. I'd be interested to see the mechanism behind that.

Btw, I'd be quick. I'm entertaining this kind of discussion at my lessure because it doesn't belong on this message board, but I like to be entertained and see what the latest fantasies are. We pretty much have a zero tolerance attitude to conspiracy theorists here.

LOL go on ban me then because once i get going on this s tu ff theirs no stopping me unless its from a mods intervention. which i couldnt really give a shit.

also yes ive read into both sides of the global warming hoax, i use to believe in it ! i was going to give you my thoughts but its a waste of my time when talking to a brickwall. Im more shocked theirs a "zero tolerance attitude to conspiracy theorists" . Goes against what muse are then i suppose.

[Mozza]

Why would you want to chemically induce narcolepsy on the population?

And if Global Warming (actually it's climate change because the world isn't uniformly warming up and climates are changing right now as we speak) is a front for a carbon tax then why are most Government's opposing economic action? Surely they'd have imposed their little taxes? and also, aren't oil companies making huge profits from destroying natural resources that took two billion years to accumulate, subsidied by Governments? Yet people never pick up on that conspiracy :rolleyes: Maybe Bellamy will write a song about the BP oil spill on the next album.....

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Climate change isn't just happening, it's inevitable. It's part of the way the Earth warms and cools over generations.

[Mozza]

Climate change isn't just happening, it's inevitable. It's part of the way the Earth warms and cools over generations.

Indeed. I do believe we are making it happen quicker than it should be which is where the problem lies.

[Niall]

LOL go on ban me then because once i get going on this s tu ff theirs no stopping me unless its from a mods intervention. which i couldnt really give a shit.

also yes ive read into both sides of the global warming hoax, i use to believe in it ! i was going to give you my thoughts but its a waste of my time when talking to a brickwall. Im more shocked theirs a "zero tolerance attitude to conspiracy theorists" . Goes against what muse are then i suppose.

I'm not a brick wall, I'm a scientist. I understand what is science and what isn't. And sadly, you are not. And your conspiracy stories are not.

We ban conspiracy theorists because the band don't wan to be link with things like the story that 9/11 was planned by the USA etc.

Indeed. I do believe we are making it happen quicker than it should be which is where the problem lies.

Indeed, this is well used plot from wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/2000_Year_Temperature_Comparison.png

The mediaeval warm period is a natural event, the massive spike in recent times that happens to start exactly after the industrial revolution, and follows a similar trend in atmospheric CO2 (which is of course also linked causally).

[CarrieB]

but people got to realise we dont live in a fantasy world, the government dont give a shit about us , they're are scared of us, which is why they like to try & control us and know everything we are doing and thinking, hence more and more draconian laws to know your everymove and thinking habits, everything is tracked & profiled, because if you think about it, if the public was to start an uprising, all hell would break loose, we outnumber them and this sort of stuff goes on everyday in third world countries where they are fighting government tyranny, the root of all evil is money, so you follow the money trail, and it all leads to big banking corporations that are in bed with governments, elite businessman that have huge influential power of media to push fear mongering propaganda like global warming or swine flu. You got to remember money and power is the main reason behind all of this, but the topic of the NWO is SO diverse it leads into secret societies, occult teachings, esoteric religious teachings that elite bloodlines only privileged to know and heaps more.
Once people realise theirs something like 6 people that run all the media corporations in the world you see how this systemic power structure works, and it how it trickles down through the mainstream media, i just dont get how people can be ok with how controlled and structured our lives are, as long as people are continuing to squabble about irrelevent subjects like fashion, celebrity goss,sports, irrelevent political dribble , It's all a major distraction, Dont People want to know why each year elite businessman and top political and government figures from countries meet secretly to discuss things unknown to the public? sounds sketchy to me, its also an act of treason ,and mainstream media will never publicise it ...look if anyone doubts what ive said i can provide links to mainstream articles about anything ive said , basically what im trying to say is now that my eyes have been opened the last couple of years , everything is not what it seems anymore, i see through their disguises and rhetoric and see scams for what they are, its just healthy to question EVERYTHING, do your own research and make your OWN mind up, dont let mainstream media tell you how its gonna be .

i couldnt believe their are still people that deny the NWO , i thought it was mainstream news that the NWO agenda is real, and they are still working on implenting it . Please watch the jason bermas/alex jones film " invisible empire- a NWO defined" and it explains everything going way back in time explaining the history and ideaology of it. I feel like i havent even scratched the surface on this subject.
i should stop being so serious.:LOL:

I think you have the gist but you're off on the villain. Yes we are tracked but by commercial companies who want to sell us things, rather than the government, and I think David is wrong - there is control of the media by the government, it's called spin but it generally relates to what is going on in political terms not in popular culture. Popular culture such as the the TV programmes we watch is influenced by money and advertisers, not the government. The link between commercial enterprises and government, as I think I already said, is through lobby groups in that richer lobbiests have more power, and it's likely that where governments receive their funding has influence as well.

But the government is not made up of an obscure super-race or anything, MPs are just people like us who have their own mix of motivations for being in government, often actually the intention is to try and help people and improve society surprisingly enough! :p. One of the problems within government (I'm concentrating on the UK in this as I know more about it) is accountability and the fact they have become more autocratic, and the fact is that top positions generally go to those educated in top public (which actually means privately funded) schools. I would imagine that such people would be more likely to be in societies like the Freemasons as it's a sort upper middle class thing - yes there are no doubt social networks, but that doesn't mean we have to stereotype the people in those positions or that there's anything sinister behind it, other than the fact that money and privilege creates money and privilege.

There's also some basis in what you say about the government being worried about the power of the people, but I think it is a bit out of date. It has been a sort of Conservative ethos to look after the rich, the aristocracy, which obviously would have originally been the King and the landowners, and in the 18th century the control was such that people would have been beheaded, just for forming groups as the government were so afraid of what that could lead to, but government is much more mixed now, and their main fear is being voted out tbh and that is where you do get the spin and the media moguls in cahoots deluding the public and confusing things with soundbites, and concentrating on personal stories rather than political ones.

But the thing is that is what is popular. That is why the tabloids sell hugely with drivial about celebrities' personal lives because that is what most people buy and it's never been any different. If you look back at social studies through history it appears that the majority of people are mainly concerned with what happens in their day to day lives, but not particularly interested in the mechanics behind that, and as long as their lives are reasonably happy and none of this has a direct influence on their own and their family's well being, they don't care. I don't think there will ever be a revolution as long as people are comfortable and they don't see any major injustice going on. That's nothing new. It's not because people are being brainwashed by music videos or current popular culture because it was the same before all that.

And this idea of suddenly having an awakening to all this stuff is nothing but a gimmick. It sounds like something from a cult. A cult which is using aspects of reality which you could learn about in any media, sociological or political educational course, to convince people that they have some kind of supreme knowledge.

Politically it may be different in America, well I know their government is set up differently. and it seems that these NWO ideas are mainly American based. I will keep it in mind but I think it is a distortion and certainly the idea that the whole world are in cahoots is a distortion. I can't understand why the people who believe in this stuff should put any more credence on the stories coming from that direction as from the government direction tbh.

And btw anyone who doesn't like reading long paragraphs regarding this sort of stuff! No one is making you! ;

And just adding, I don't think there should be intolerence towards conspiracy theorists on this board. That is the board moderators taking it upon themselves to suppress what the band (well Matt at least) want known, just because they don't agree with it, and the board does actually belong to the band not to the moderators.:)

Also I think it's good to discuss this stuff.

[Dockertae]

Well I'm not backing the conspiracy theorists, but I think it's a bit of a leap to say human induced climate change is a cold hard fact. The data you get back when comparing carbon dioxide levels with temperature change varies wildly depending on what model is used, how the data is collected etc. It's probably more accurate to say you might lean one way or the other, but we can't say for sure what is correct.

[CarrieB]

I'm not a brick wall, I'm a scientist. I understand what is science and what isn't. And sadly, you are not. And your conspiracy stories are not.

We ban conspiracy theorists because the band don't wan to be link with things like the story that 9/11 was planned by the USA etc.



Oh that's interesting. Is that the band or their management though I wonder?! ;)

Odd that they'd keep the links here to the conspiracy sites then. :)

Okay I take back what I said about suppressing their interests if you've had instructions, though personally I think open discussion is more useful. Matt can't take back what he's said, even if it's perfectly plausable to think that he might have changed his mind.

[Niall]

I should elaborate that I was referring specifically to them happening outside of CA, because this is for Muse discussion. And as for what the band do and don't believe in these days, don't assume too much.

There are some things that are corrupt that indeed should be discussed, like a few select individuals monopolising media, eg. Murdoch. These aren't conspiracies, it is pretty obvious how the political leanings filter down and influence gullible people (call it brain washing if you want, but that sounds like some whacky sci fi thing and will turn a lot of people off). Take a look at the Daily Mail or wikileaks threads for example.

This isn't some golden truth that only the a select few have some how come to realise, and treating it as such makes you look foolish. You have to remain rational and non sensationalist about things like this, lest you come across as ridiculous. And pick the right battles. Global warming is loaded with good science to back it up. Sure there may be some corruption involved in the political handling of it, but don't let that block your view of something that is real and should be worried about.

The world is full of terrible things without the need to invent some crazy conspiracies, and these are the things that really need discussing.

[Niall]

Oh that's interesting. Is that the band or their management though I wonder?! ;)

Odd that they'd keep the links here to the conspiracy sites then. :)

Okay I take back what I said about suppressing their interests if you've had instructions.

We haven't had instruction per se. But I know that thing about Matt calling 9/11 an inside job is inaccurate, and they've distanced themselves from it, for example.

I think Matt has said in interviews that conspiracy theories are worth discussing, but should themselves be viewed very critically. Of course, everything should be.

And I don't think we accept people pushing through conspiracy theory propaganda because it distracts from constructive discussions.

As stickied in current affairs:

Please if you are thinking of making any threads with the slightest connection to 9/11 and any conspiracy regarding it to use the 9/11 thread (http://board.muse.mu/showthread.php?t=35272) or if you genuinely consider your idea to warrant its own individual topic to contact a moderator (http://board.muse.mu/showgroups.php) first to check. The reason for this is at the time of writing this we are getting swamped by a small minority of users who are ignoring all rules and warnings and just using this area as a place to flood our forum with their own ideas/propaganda in a way that is making it difficult for people to use this area normally. By making new threads on this topic there is a good chance you will be banned permanently, so please consider this a warning.

Please note this isn't a restriction on what you can post, you're fully welcome to discuss conspiracy theories in the 9/11 thread but our usual rules (http://board.muse.mu/rules.php) apply.

[vinya12]

Did you know that swine flu is man made. Yep it was made in a laboratory. By men. So why did it get released to the public? In the 70s they released a form of swine flu in to the population. And then developed a vaccine. The vaccine did more harm than the flu .
The vaccine was considered unsafe. A new form of swine flu was made and released . This swine flu was no more harmful than any other flu. They started to use the vaccine again. THE SAME VACCINE . the one that had been teased as unsafe .
So why?
The human population is out of control. There are to many of us. Its not good for the big guys as we rely on them for food heating housing and so on. So, how to control the population? How do you control to many rabbits in a field ? The best way to control the populasiin is mass illness. If people die because there are ill they don't question as much as they would if a bomb was drooped.
REMEMBER SWINE FLY IS MAN MADE

[Niall]

Did you know that swine flu is man made. Yep it was made in a laboratory. By men. So why did it get released to the public? In the 70s they released a form of swine flu in to the population. And then developed a vaccine. The vaccine did more harm than the flu .
The vaccine was considered unsafe. A new form of swine flu was made and released . This swine flu was no more harmful than any other flu. They started to use the vaccine again. THE SAME VACCINE . the one that had been teased as unsafe .
So why?
The human population is out of control. There are to many of us. Its not good for the big guys as we rely on them for food heating housing and so on. So, how to control the population? How do you control to many rabbits in a field ? The best way to control the populasiin is mass illness. If people die because there are ill they don't question as much as they would if a bomb was drooped.
REMEMBER SWINE FLY IS MAN MADE

Evidence?

And I mean objective evidence.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

we could sit here all night and day comparing different graphs that prove anthropogenic global warming is/isnt happening,ive been through this time and time again with others and leaked emails prove that scientists were tampering with data to make it look worse than what it is ,yes you can say an "independent inquiry" cleared the people involved but that "independent inquiry " wasnt really "independent " since the investigation was led by sir russell muir , a member of the royal society of edinburgh which is a vehemont supporter of anthropogenic global warming, and clearly contradicts the "independent inquiry" , lets say if it was happening ,its no where near as catastrophic as the UN make it out to be , they depict apocalyptic style consequences once again spreading fear into the public. Al gore saying CO2 rises then temperatures rise is actually the other way around,once again another lie by gore himself.
They called the climate scare " global warming" then when the warming stopped they called it " climate change" , then when the climate changed no more than usual they called it "energy security" then they would try call it " ocean acidification" eventually calling the climate scare for what it really is " absolute bullshit"

There is just way to many variables in this subject matter to say we are the only sole reason for global warming.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/globalwarming.html

[CarrieB]

We haven't had instruction per se. But I know that thing about Matt calling 9/11 an inside job is inaccurate, and they've distanced themselves from it, for example.

I think Matt has said in interviews that conspiracy theories are worth discussing, but should themselves be viewed very critically. Of course, everything should be.

And I don't think we accept people pushing through conspiracy theory propaganda because it distracts from constructive discussions.

As stickied in current affairs:

Okay that's fair enough.

While on the subject there is also the thing about who the conspiracy theories might attract. While I agree they are worth discussing, I have seen stuff from people who believe them without question and there was stuff where these people got the idea that Muse were traitors working for the NWO because of symbols in their videos, which is a little concerning. :stunned:

[Niall]

Potential and rebuked accusations of data tampering at one institution does not equal a global conspiracy to fake data.

Climate change is a more general term. It is still called global warming, although is term can be misconstrued as a uniform increase in temperature, as apposed to an increase in temperature anomaly, because with global warming some areas may indeed get colder as global climate changes.

Ocean acidification is a recorded side effect of increased CO2. Simply because when CO2 dissolves in water it forms an acid, therefore an increase in CO2 will obviously increase the acidity of any bodies of water exposed to it.

Energy security is a no brainer. Oil isn't reliable. It is dependent on finding new sources of it, and it is always running out. Also, its availability is subject to an increasingly unreliable economy and a politically complex infrastructure. New oil takes millions of years to form naturally, whereas we're pumping out vast quantities of it ever day. Things like the sun and the wind are not so potentially variable, so they are a secure means of obtaining energy.

[Niall]

Okay that's fair enough.

While on the subject there is also the thing about who the conspiracy theories might attract. While I agree they are worth discussing, I have seen stuff from people who believe them without question and there was stuff where these people got the idea that Muse were traitors working for the NWO because of symbols in their videos, which is a little concerning. :stunned:

These people are typically trained to spot things that aren't necessarily there, akin to religious people "seeing" God's work everywhere they go. If you are always looking for something, let's say, you "enrich" what you see with what you want to see. It is the misinterpretation of of things as intentional symbols because your gear your brain to spot certain symbolisms and apply unwarranted significance to them whereas such a significance simply isn't there under a critical analysis, or if it is intended, may very well be entirely misinterpreted.

[vinya12]

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/27/science/sci-swine-history27

[vinya12]

http://www.naturalnews.com/026866_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.htm l
quote-, what we really have with the swine flu vaccine is an untested, potentially dangerous cocktail of chemicals and viral fragments that could plausibly be linked to a devastating neurological condition.

[vinya12]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMqYlnAiIUU&p=4477919FCD64DE08&playnext=1&index=10

[Niall]

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/27/science/sci-swine-history27

All that article says is how there was an ineffective vaccine made for what turned out to be a limited epidemic in 1976.

[Niall]

http://www.naturalnews.com/026866_swine_flu_flu_vaccine_swine_flu_vaccine.htm l
quote-, what we really have with the swine flu vaccine is an untested, potentially dangerous cocktail of chemicals and viral fragments that could plausibly be linked to a devastating neurological condition.

That's a website...referencing the Daily Mail!

That's a long distance away from being objective evidence, or evidence at all.

Science is what I'm after. Not scaremongering media report. Find me some scientific publications, something with some authority, not a website with an agenda referencing the biggest scaremongering, agenda-laden tabloid in the UK. The DM isn't taken seriously.

Even if that is believable, it doesn't support what you're saying. It only goes to show that government didn't properly test it, resulting in an incredible small minority of side effects that probably has no statistical significance whatsoever.

And as for the youtube video, well, it's a youtube video. The best that could be is a form of entertainment rather than evidence. It's entitled "conspiracy" so it is hardly objective from the outset.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Potential and rebuked accusations of data tampering at one institution does not equal a global conspiracy to fake data.

Climate change is a more general term. It is still called global warming, although is term can be misconstrued as a uniform increase in temperature, as apposed to an increase in temperature anomaly, because with global warming some areas may indeed get colder as global climate changes.

Ocean acidification is a recorded side effect of increased CO2. Simply because when CO2 dissolves in water it forms an acid, therefore an increase in CO2 will obviously increase the acidity of any bodies of water exposed to it.
.

But there is already 70 times as much CO2 dissolved in the oceans as there is concentrated in the earths atmopshere, that if we double the CO2 concentration in the atmosphere this century 1/3 of the extra CO2 will end up the oceans and therefore the oceanic partial pressure can only increase by at most 30% of 1/70th of what is already there or a tiny 0.4% not to mention henrys law says that the oceans will outgas CO2 substantially compensating for the higher atmospheric concentration. The effects are minimal, the ipcc exagerate to the max about their temperature data calculations.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Off-topic thread is off-topic.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

im sure nial will correct me if im wrong :LOL:

[vinya12]

I spent weeks researching this and it would take weeks to fine the evidence you want. But believe me if you have the time resurch this as much as you can. You will be surprised what you find, but it wil take a lot of your time. i dont have the time to do it all again for you.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

I spent weeks researching this and it would take weeks to fine the evidence you want. But believe me if you have the time resurch this as much as you can. You will be surprised what you find, but it wil take a lot of your time. i dont have the time to do it all again for you.

Weeks? Christ, that's nearly forever!

People have been researching things like this their whole lives and still haven't reached any consensus on it. You haven't researched, you've just read a few articles that have somehow convinced you that what you read is true.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Weeks? Christ, that's nearly forever!

People have been researching things like this their whole lives and still haven't reached any consensus on it. You haven't researched, you've just read a few articles that have somehow convinced you that what you read is true.

yer but when most of the facts are quoted from actual scientists are you then disregarding their work and calling them a liar ?

[Niall]

I don't think applying high school chemistry and misunderstand the term "partial pressure" is quite accounting enough for such a complex system. Simplistic attempts at modelling aside, it isn't real evidence.

This letter (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v454/n7200/pdf/nature07051.pdf) was published in Nature a while ago and is pretty worrying. There's tons of literature about it.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

i think niall is a total denier of everything he is told unless it is presented in some type scientific peer reviewed paper. :LOL:

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

i think niall is a total denier of everything he is told unless it is presented in some type scientific peer reviewed paper. :LOL:

Niall is a clear thinker who doesn't believe something just because it's been posted in a newspaper.

[Niall]

I spent weeks researching this and it would take weeks to fine the evidence you want. But believe me if you have the time resurch this as much as you can. You will be surprised what you find, but it wil take a lot of your time. i dont have the time to do it all again for you.

"Evidence" that you've conveniently lost? That's a bit of a cop out. Besides, scientific evidence is easy to find. All papers are available as PSD or PS on the internet these days. Or if not, what sort of evidence are you talking about?

[CarrieB]

These people are typically trained to spot things that aren't necessarily there, akin to religious people "seeing" God's work everywhere they go. If you are always looking for something, let's say, you "enrich" what you see with what you want to see. It is the misinterpretation of of things as intentional symbols because your gear your brain to spot certain symbolisms and apply unwarranted significance to them whereas such a significance simply isn't there under a critical analysis, or if it is intended, may very well be entirely misinterpreted.

Yeah I agree, it might not even be on purpose because it's natural psychologically to notice things more if you have a particular interest in them and attribute them greater and wider significance than they have in reality when tested.

I'm sure there is misinterpretation of tongue in cheek references as well.

Personally I don't think science is foolproof and has all the answers. It too is open to errors in judgement (and influenced by money and commercial interests and political interests incidentally). I've been studying that from a social science rather than natural science perspective. If science could tell us everything, and was always right incidentally, there would be no point in scientific investigation continuing. That is why I don't ever think people should be closed minded, but honestly some of the stuff these "conspiracy theorists" come out with is BS, I'm sure.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

I don't think applying high school chemistry and misunderstand the term "partial pressure" is quite accounting enough for such a complex system. Simplistic attempts at modelling aside, it isn't real evidence.

This letter (http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v454/n7200/pdf/nature07051.pdf) was published in Nature a while ago and is pretty worrying. There's tons of literature about it.

lets put a tax on volcanoes !!

[Niall]

i think niall is a total denier of everything he is told unless it is presented in some type scientific peer reviewed paper. :LOL:

No, I am critical of everything I am told unless I am presented with enough reasons to accept it. In order to assess the value of anything important stated as a fact it but be looked at critically.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Niall is a clear thinker who doesn't believe something just because it's been posted in a newspaper.

no nial is apparently a scientists, and a scientists way of looking at things is "there has to be a scientific reason behind it " , people are forgetting that when we are trying to save the earth , their are going to be alot of people becomming filthy rich, i just dont get it this greed.

[vinya12]

One feeling I am getting here is people think its a game of who is right and whos wrong. Its not a game. I don't want to win. I want to help you. I want you to open your eyes. I want you to not except everything lying down but to question it study it and find out if its real or true, I don't keep any of the evidence I find, may be I should, apart from this- that I will post in a separate post. Its from the study of chem trails.
I believe my brother died because of this

[vinya12]

Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials
Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer
Sunday April 21, 2002
The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.
A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.
Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.
While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.
The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.
The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.
In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.
One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.
While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.
In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.
The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.
Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.
Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.
In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.
However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.
David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.
The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'
Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.
Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'
The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.
The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'
Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.
'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'
Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'
antony.barnett@observer.co.uk

[pinkfloyddsotm]

No, I am critical of everything I am told unless I am presented with enough reasons to accept it. In order to assess the value of anything important stated as a fact it but be looked at critically.
its the same as alot of the "conspiracy theories" , there is alot of proof for the basis of these presumptions. I just wonder if you have actually read any of the "climate deniers" websites that are out their proving the global warming hoax, because their is alot of information to sort through. im still reading through 80 page assessment.

[Niall]

Yeah I agree, it might not even be on purpose because it's natural psychologically to notice things more if you have a particular interest in them and attribute them greater and wider significance than they have in reality when tested.

I'm sure there is misinterpretation of tongue in cheek references as well.

Personally I don't think science is foolproof and has all the answers. It too is open to errors in judgement (and influenced by money and commercial interests and political interests incidentally). I've been studying that from a social science rather than natural science perspective. If science could tell us everything, and was always right incidentally, there would be no point in scientific investigation continuing. That is why I don't ever think people should be closed minded, but honestly some of the stuff these "conspiracy theorists" come out with is BS, I'm sure.

True.

But depends what kind of science you are talking about. Industrial research lead by corporation has the potential to be corrupt. Academic science would be extremely hard to corrupt. Any given scientist will no doubt discuss and present there work to hundreds of others on varying levels in the form of conferences and meeting and collaborations and published literature. For an academic research institution to become corrupted it would have to isolate itself to such an extent it could become incapable of carrying out effective research.

Science in general, of course, should be assessed critically. That is the point in peer review and publishing research in a scientific manner. As you probably know this is meticulous thing that cannot be done with hand waiving dismissal and suspicion though. The fact that science can go wrong is its strength however; a lack of a result is just as important as a result. Theories are always open to refinement and betterment as new evidence is found. This shouldn't mean that established science shouldn't be trusted though when it is shown to be real beyond reasonable doubt.

[Niall]

no nial is apparently a scientists, and a scientists way of looking at things is "there has to be a scientific reason behind it " , people are forgetting that when we are trying to save the earth , their are going to be alot of people becomming filthy rich, i just dont get it this greed.

Well when it comes to an assessment of reality then what tool other than science would you recommend for the studying of it?

In the real world things do have scientific reasons behind them.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

yer thats some crazy stuff vinya12

[chudenk]

One feeling I am getting here is people think its a game of who is right and whos wrong. Its not a game. I don't want to win. I want to help you. I want you to open your eyes. I want you to not except everything lying down but to question it study it and find out if its real or true, I don't keep any of the evidence I find, may be I should, apart from this- that I will post in a separate post. Its from the study of chem trails.
I believe my brother died because of this

:(

[Niall]

its the same as alot of the "conspiracy theories" , there is alot of proof for the basis of these presumptions. I just wonder if you have actually read any of the "climate deniers" websites that are out their proving the global warming hoax, because their is alot of information to sort through. im still reading through 80 page assessment.

Of course, but they are just that, websites, typically run by a few people who provide their own commentary on things. Tell me some good ones if you want!

A website cannot prove anything alone though.

Guess what can!

[CarrieB]

One feeling I am getting here is people think its a game of who is right and whos wrong. Its not a game. I don't want to win. I want to help you. I want you to open your eyes. I want you to not except everything lying down but to question it study it and find out if its real or true, I don't keep any of the evidence I find, may be I should, apart from this- that I will post in a separate post. Its from the study of chem trails.
I believe my brother died because of this

No you're wrong it's not a game, I'm trying to help you! ;) :LOL: As Chizzle said people have researched for years, for a lifetime. And while nothing can be totally objective, given the choice between looking at something spewed out on a conspiracy site which has goodness knows what kind of bias behind it, and that on an academic site, I would chose the academic site and look at it critically, while bearing in my mind what has been spewed out on the conspiracy site. :)

Personally I'm not saying I know the answers but everything that happens in the world, in life, there is a mind boggling amount of research into it. No one person would possibly be able to get to the bottom of anything unquestionably. I would say just be careful where you get your "evidence" from.

Sorry I didn't notice about your brother. I can see you have reason to want to research the background to what happened to your brother.

[Niall]

Chemtrails is just silly. Arbitrarily linking contrails to assorted bad things. That's verging on cargo cult logic.

Wasn't the whole theory found to be a hoax anyway?

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

yer but when most of the facts are quoted from actual scientists are you then disregarding their work and calling them a liar ?

If I have the scientific work in front of me first-hand, and not provided by a shady website, news site or other third-party source then I'll read into it and look at it objectively.

Corporate science has been alleged to have corrupted aims, with numbers cherrypicked to suit the aims of the corporation, but the very same is true of conspiracy theory sites etc. They pick what suits them and ignore all the rest. As Niall said, academic science is the most objective of all and the least likely to be corrupted in any particular direction.

[Dockertae]

I've noticed one or two of the conspiracy-minded posters using the term "hoax" to describe the science behind climate change. Just as a heads-up this is a dead giveaway that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, because whether the science behind it turned out to be right or wrong blaming some group for hoodwinking the public just shows you don't understand how the system of researching these phenomenon works at all.

This is something I find it general when people blame science for something, they seem to assume there is some overarching system that controls the entire process, rather than it being down to a lot of completely unrelated groups or individuals doing work on their own projects.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

I've noticed one or two of the conspiracy-minded posters using the term "hoax" to describe the science behind climate change. Just as a heads-up this is a dead giveaway that you don't have a clue what you're talking about, because whether the science behind it turned out to be right or wrong blaming some group for hoodwinking the public just shows you don't understand how the system of researching these phenomenon works at all.

This is something I find it general when people blame science for something, they seem to assume there is some overarching system that controls the entire process, rather than it being down to a lot of completely unrelated groups or individuals doing work on their own projects.

If CERN don't find the Higgs Boson there'll be a lot of angry conspiracy theorists who'll claim it was a hoax and a cover for inventing time travel or something :LOL:

[pinkfloyddsotm]

im finished with the cock measuring contest for tonight, this whole thread has been a learning curve for me , as im trying to respond to everyone im also researching my points and getting distracted at the same time, i dont give a fuck that niall and carrie are squares and totally dismiss conspiracy facts ,i only hope that one day they see the truth, and become an anarchist like i am LMAO.

[Niall]

Cock measuring contest?

Up for that.

[CarrieB]

True.

But depends what kind of science you are talking about. Industrial research lead by corporation has the potential to be corrupt. Academic science would be extremely hard to corrupt. Any given scientist will no doubt discuss and present there work to hundreds of others on varying levels in the form of conferences and meeting and collaborations and published literature. For an academic research institution to become corrupted it would have to isolate itself to such an extent it could become incapable of carrying out effective research.

Science in general, of course, should be assessed critically. That is the point in peer review and publishing research in a scientific manner. As you probably know this is meticulous thing that cannot be done with hand waiving dismissal and suspicion though. The fact that science can go wrong is its strength however; a lack of a result is just as important as a result. Theories are always open to refinement and betterment as new evidence is found. This shouldn't mean that established science shouldn't be trusted though when it is shown to be real beyond reasonable doubt.


Yeah I accept this, but the bias can be in the funding. Where the funds come from for the research. I'm not saying scientific study is corrupt, not at all, and as you say it is critically assessed in the scientific environment. Outside that environment it can be used selectively for political or commercial purposes though and things like the medicalisation of society could have occurred because pharmaceutical companies have a lot of funds to finance the research. Research into the pure sciences obviously gets funding from somewhere so there could also be imbalance in the amount of research carried out by one interest as opposed to another if that makes sense. And I think, was it Kant who said something like if you've only ever seen white swans, you might believe that there's no such thing as a black swan.

[CarrieB]

im finished with the cock measuring contest for tonight, this whole thread has been a learning curve for me , as im trying to respond to everyone im also researching my points and getting distracted at the same time, i dont give a fuck that niall and carrie are squares and totally dismiss conspiracy facts ,i only hope that one day they see the truth, and become an anarchist like i am LMAO.

:LOL: I'm a square who completely dismisses conspiracy "facts" am I?! :LOL: I don't think you actually read my posts properly at all!

[pinkfloyddsotm]

:LOL: I'm a square who completely dismisses conspiracy "facts" am I?! :LOL: I don't think you actually read my posts properly at all!

lol i think you are in the middle, which is a good thing, you just need that little extra push to come onto myside :D

[Niall]

Yeah I accept this, but the bias can be in the funding. Where the funds come from for the research. I'm not saying scientific study is corrupt, not at all, and as you say it is critically assessed in the scientific environment. Outside that environment it can be used selectively for political or commercial purposes though and things like the medicalisation of society could have occurred because pharmaceutical companies have a lot of funds to finance the research. Research into the pure sciences obviously gets funding from somewhere so there could also be imbalance in the amount of research carried out by one interest as opposed to another if that makes sense. And I think, was it Kant who said something like if you've only ever seen white swans, you might believe that there's no such thing as a black swan.

In the UK it's from the STFC. They make plenty of stupid decisions with regards to funding is used but that's mainly a practical thing. Other bodies in the EU like the Marie Curie. They do prefer to fund certain areas of research they think will be the most fruitful and interesting, but hold no inherent bias for desired result. Nor are they capable of influencing the result of whatever is financed. So you are right there in some respects, but it isn't a shady process, it's more a value for money one. In astronomy (where I am most familiar) they like to finance investigations into dark matter or exoplanets, but that's just because they are the newest and most active, exciting fields. They pick the fields that have proven to be the most fruitful as a form of scientific investment. Universities also provide a lot of more independent funding,

[Niall]

lol i think you are in the middle, which is a good thing, you just need that little extra push to come onto myside :D

Yeah. Cop out. See I've dismissed your stories and present the real facts, but you've decided to give up on the discussion and make accusations about me dismissing the "facts". I think this shows you haven't really been reading or paying attention.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Yeah. Cop out. See I've dismissed your stories and present the real facts, but you've decided to give up on the discussion and make accusations about me dismissing the "facts". I think this shows you haven't really been reading or paying attention.

lol, mate you couldnt dismiss my stories if you tried , ive made up my mind on certain topics, ive been trying to convince people for two years , and i get the same negative reaction as you're giving me , that im just crazy and dont know what im on about, so i dont really give a shit about convincing people, i just let people find their own way into the rabbit hole, i still agree with you on one thing, and that is looking at things on a scientific basis , but somethings cannot be answered from a scientific view point.
To each his own.

[Dockertae]

lol, mate you couldnt dismiss my stories if you tried , ive made up my mind on certain topics, ive been trying to convince people for two years , and i get the same negative reaction as you're giving me , that im just crazy and dont know what im on about, so i dont really give a shit about convincing people, i just let people find their own way into the rabbit hole, i still agree with you on one thing, and that is looking at things on a scientific basis , but somethings cannot be answered from a scientific view point.
To each his own.

Like what, isn't science pretty much just the study of anything that can be shown to exist?

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Like what, isn't science pretty much just the study of anything that can be shown to exist?

yer theirs different sciences, im talking about social science you're talking about natural science .

[Niall]

lol, mate you couldnt dismiss my stories if you tried , ive made up my mind on certain topics, ive been trying to convince people for two years , and i get the same negative reaction as you're giving me , that im just crazy and dont know what im on about, so i dont really give a shit about convincing people, i just let people find their own way into the rabbit hole, i still agree with you on one thing, and that is looking at things on a scientific basis , but somethings cannot be answered from a scientific view point.
To each his own.

Well I tried, and I did! Did you miss it?

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Well I tried, and I did! Did you miss it?

wait , what did i miss ? quick change of topic, biffy clyro opening for muse in aus ! cant wait for december now even more, two sick bands.
ok back to what you were saying.

[haze015]

I love this article. I could have wrote it my self. You only have to looks at face book and see all the teen girls who all look the same and think you have to be sexy. kids are so obsessed with looks and being cool that they don't have time to look at the big picture. But that's what the corporates want. Keep us busy so we look the other way. Not like the 60s 70s where teens wanted to take over the world and stop war. Hippy s I salute you. Or in the 80s ware rock music sent a message about how to be proud of who you are and not try to fit in a box. What dose music tell kids today? . You have to look sexy all the time, and be popular. . Muse are the only band I know that are shouting out to the kids saying wake up, .
As conspiracies unwind
Will you slam shut
Or free your mind
Or stay hypnotised

What a pile of complete rose-tinted bollocks. The corporate side of the music industry is exactly the same as it has always been, nothing more or less, nothing sinister. It doesn't try to control the minds of teenagers, it's simply dictated by it, if it could dictate, music would go nowhere as these big companies don't handle change all that well.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

What a pile of complete rose-tinted bollocks. The corporate side of the music industry is exactly the same as it has always been, nothing more or less, nothing sinister. It doesn't try to control the minds of teenagers, it's simply dictated by it, if it could dictate, music would go nowhere as these big companies don't handle change all that well.
lmao, i beg to differ, the music industry is sinister, and uses various methods of mind control whether it being the sexualisation of weaponry/police state agenda in rhianna,lady gaga or beyonce concerts/music videos,it all helps to create a positive sub-conscious association with whatever the music video is portraying, im not saying this is how it is on every major music label but a majority of mainstream pop music has hidden meanings, people just dont know how to interpret them yet.

[haze015]

lmao, i beg to differ, the music industry is sinister, and uses various methods of mind control whether it being the sexualisation of weaponry/police state agenda in rhianna,lady gaga or beyonce concerts/music videos,it all helps to create a positive sub-conscious association with whatever the music video is portraying, im not saying this is how it is on every major music label but a majority of mainstream pop music has hidden meanings, you just dont know how to interpret them yet.

:facepalm: :LOL:

Don't jump to conclusions about what I do & don't know and even who I know or whether I can or can't interpret something. Standard deviation tactic by people with your outlook, it's pathetic. :)

[Dockertae]

lmao, i beg to differ, the music industry is sinister, and uses various methods of mind control whether it being the sexualisation of weaponry/police state agenda in rhianna,lady gaga or beyonce concerts/music videos,it all helps to create a positive sub-conscious association with whatever the music video is portraying, im not saying this is how it is on every major music label but a majority of mainstream pop music has hidden meanings, people just dont know how to interpret them yet.

I'm not saying the music industry is incapable of doing things wrong, but big business as a whole care about making money. I find it highly unlikely that someone goes to work every day with the sole purpose of inserting mind controlling hidden meanings into pop music when there are plenty of people out there who they can market their products to, because what's going to be cheaper - funding ways to mind control people so you can sell your products or selling to existing markets?

I'm afraid to say the reason stupid stuff sells is because stupid people buy it. Also why would the music industry want to forward a police state agenda when that's more likely to reduce their profits than help them?

[haze015]

I'm not saying the music industry is incapable of doing things wrong, but big business as a whole care about making money. I find it highly unlikely that someone goes to work every day with the sole purpose of inserting mind controlling hidden meanings into pop music when there are plenty of people out there who they can market their products to, because what's going to be cheaper - funding ways to mind control people so you can sell your products or selling to existing markets?

I'm afraid to say the reason stupid stuff sells is because stupid people buy it. Also why would the music industry want to forward a police state agenda when that's more likely to reduce their profits than help them?

Yep, these are huge global companies employing thousands of people and require outside help from other companies to do what they do. There can only be one simple goal of any business of that size and that's purely to make money, anything else wouldn't work as it's not a few board members in a room running everything, it's thousands of people from all walks of life with different beliefs and aims...

Not that purely being about making money isn't sinister, it's far from brainwashing and promoting "police states" when it's actually references to early underground/indie electronic music.

[Mc Queen]

And as for Swine Flu vaccines. Right :LOL: because vaccines can cause narcolepsy. Where was that even published? I don't mean some local Australian newspaper, what with their cutting edge medical research I know, I mean scientific literature. I'd be interested to see the mechanism behind that.

Here's an article from a -as far as I know- more reliable news website:
article on yle.fi (http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/08/minister_calls_for_thorough_examination_of_possibl e_link_between_h1n1_and_narcolepsy_1912099.html?pr int=true)

Science is what I'm after. Not scaremongering media report. Find me some scientific publications, something with some authority, not a website with an agenda referencing the biggest scaremongering, agenda-laden tabloid in the UK. The DM isn't taken seriously.
Couldn't find any of those, sorry, but then I wasn't willing to search for long.
There's a nice comment on medicalnewstoday.com too, as I've never seen that site before I have no clue who does it but they claim to quote the Finnish health authorities.

Anyway I refused to take this swine flu shot alone for the fact it had mercury in it. :p

[hyper_chondriac_muser]

I tend to disagree with people who say the government controls the media. True, there are the occasional grand reveals when the CIA has been discovered to have hired journalists to write on the behalf of the government, but the main drive is, crazily enough, money. They know what the people like to watch and give it to them. Crazy stuff boosts the ratings, and they win dough.

Because people are biased though, and that bias finds its way into news stories (eg Faux News), peoples' minds can be easily influenced by what they are told to be true. At the stage where they realise it should be taken with a grain of salt, the next conclusion is somehow 'OMG GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACY', which while plausible, isn't logical. It's just good business, with a sprinkle of human error.

That sounds like a lot of generalising when I edit through it. :erm:

:LOL:

I think it's a bit of both. The media are always out to get the biggest ratings, sell the most papers, have the highest number of readers/viewers etc.; however, I don't think we should be ignorant to the possibility of government influences in some areas... take the the whole 'swine flu' pandemic. It was blown waaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion; some papers made it sound like London was about to be hit by an unstoppable plague that would take 60-90,000 lives, and the only cure rested in the hands of whom?... the government, who would spend X amount to get the hundreds of thousands of Tamiflu tablets that we MUST have in order to survive.

The actuality of it was nowhere near the 'epidemic' they made it sound like. A sense of hysteria was created out of these stories - it's textbook sensationalism from the media. They stood to gain because, as you say, many people are easily influenced by what they're told and are pretty much spoon fed by tabloids etc. But the government would gain too, arguably... just like some people think that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American government to keep people in 'perpetual' fear so that we would turn to our leaders to pull us out of the crisis and our faith in them would be restored, the swine flu thing could be perceived in a similar light.

I don't think the government 'controls' the media as such, but I do think they have a bit of a partnership and pay-outs etc. happen to keep both parties happy. The press get their ratings, the politicians get some stories 'tweaked', and all is fine to an unsuspecting public. I don't buy in to conspiracies really, I just think it's wiser to be open-minded about what's potentially happening in society than to be ignorant to the fact that there is an element of 'mind control', however subtle.

[Mozza]

Potential and rebuked accusations of data tampering at one institution does not equal a global conspiracy to fake data.

Climate change is a more general term. It is still called global warming, although is term can be misconstrued as a uniform increase in temperature, as apposed to an increase in temperature anomaly, because with global warming some areas may indeed get colder as global climate changes.

Ocean acidification is a recorded side effect of increased CO2. Simply because when CO2 dissolves in water it forms an acid, therefore an increase in CO2 will obviously increase the acidity of any bodies of water exposed to it.

Energy security is a no brainer. Oil isn't reliable. It is dependent on finding new sources of it, and it is always running out. Also, its availability is subject to an increasingly unreliable economy and a politically complex infrastructure. New oil takes millions of years to form naturally, whereas we're pumping out vast quantities of it ever day. Things like the sun and the wind are not so potentially variable, so they are a secure means of obtaining energy.

I really wish the focus was on energy security rather than climate change. Energy security issue is rather easy to prove using quite simple economics. Climate change is almost impossible to predict with any accuracy. So even in my PhD on reducing household energy consumption and carbon dioxide emissions) i'm still constantly being asked to 'prove' climate change when I am not, and do not pretend to be a climate scientist and consider it to be a secondary issue to my work.


I think it's a bit of both. The media are always out to get the biggest ratings, sell the most papers, have the highest number of readers/viewers etc.; however, I don't think we should be ignorant to the possibility of government influences in some areas... take the the whole 'swine flu' pandemic. It was blown waaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion; some papers made it sound like London was about to be hit by an unstoppable plague that would take 60-90,000 lives, and the only cure rested in the hands of whom?... the government, who would spend X amount to get the hundreds of thousands of Tamiflu tablets that we MUST have in order to survive.

The actuality of it was nowhere near the 'epidemic' they made it sound like. A sense of hysteria was created out of these stories - it's textbook sensationalism from the media. They stood to gain because, as you say, many people are easily influenced by what they're told and are pretty much spoon fed by tabloids etc. But the government would gain too, arguably... just like some people think that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American government to keep people in 'perpetual' fear so that we would turn to our leaders to pull us out of the crisis and our faith in them would be restored, the swine flu thing could be perceived in a similar light.

I don't think the government 'controls' the media as such, but I do think they have a bit of a partnership and pay-outs etc. happen to keep both parties happy. The press get their ratings, the politicians get some stories 'tweaked', and all is fine to an unsuspecting public. I don't buy in to conspiracies really, I just think it's wiser to be open-minded about what's potentially happening in society than to be ignorant to the fact that there is an element of 'mind control', however subtle.

With Swine Flu, the media/Government overreacted because imagine it was an incredibly bad illness and millions/billions of people died. There would have been severe uproar. People have trouble accepting bad things happen and want to blame someone. So when a disease comes along and debilitates them/destroys their lives they want compensating. The Government were covering their backs and the media had a story to run on. No conspiracy just the media using the story to push up profits and organisations covering their backs incase the worst did happen.

In the end, politicians have to pander to the media to some extent because they need re-election but I don't think there is some global conspiracy going on. In a globalising world, national Governments have less and less control over fiscal and monetary tools, so instead they just try and micromanage everything, because all Governments want to be seen as doing something. So instead of say the UK Government tweaking with interest rates every 5 minutes (and sometimes getting it spectacularly wrong) they just put up some more CCTV cameras that are useless to be seen as 'getting tough on crime'

[haze015]

I think it's a bit of both. The media are always out to get the biggest ratings, sell the most papers, have the highest number of readers/viewers etc.; however, I don't think we should be ignorant to the possibility of government influences in some areas... take the the whole 'swine flu' pandemic. It was blown waaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion; some papers made it sound like London was about to be hit by an unstoppable plague that would take 60-90,000 lives, and the only cure rested in the hands of whom?... the government, who would spend X amount to get the hundreds of thousands of Tamiflu tablets that we MUST have in order to survive.

The actuality of it was nowhere near the 'epidemic' they made it sound like. A sense of hysteria was created out of these stories - it's textbook sensationalism from the media. They stood to gain because, as you say, many people are easily influenced by what they're told and are pretty much spoon fed by tabloids etc. But the government would gain too, arguably... just like some people think that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American government to keep people in 'perpetual' fear so that we would turn to our leaders to pull us out of the crisis and our faith in them would be restored, the swine flu thing could be perceived in a similar light.

I don't think the government 'controls' the media as such, but I do think they have a bit of a partnership and pay-outs etc. happen to keep both parties happy. The press get their ratings, the politicians get some stories 'tweaked', and all is fine to an unsuspecting public. I don't buy in to conspiracies really, I just think it's wiser to be open-minded about what's potentially happening in society than to be ignorant to the fact that there is an element of 'mind control', however subtle.

There is backhand deals going on, but not for something like swine flu, the government wouldn't have benefitted there, it would have been the drugs companies creating a vaccine for it who'd have benefitted. The media going apeshit is a story to sell.

Murdoch supporting the Conservatives in the recent British election was part of a behind the scenes deal.

[CarrieB]

I think it's a bit of both. The media are always out to get the biggest ratings, sell the most papers, have the highest number of readers/viewers etc.; however, I don't think we should be ignorant to the possibility of government influences in some areas... take the the whole 'swine flu' pandemic. It was blown waaaaaaaaaaaay out of proportion; some papers made it sound like London was about to be hit by an unstoppable plague that would take 60-90,000 lives, and the only cure rested in the hands of whom?... the government, who would spend X amount to get the hundreds of thousands of Tamiflu tablets that we MUST have in order to survive.

The actuality of it was nowhere near the 'epidemic' they made it sound like. A sense of hysteria was created out of these stories - it's textbook sensationalism from the media. They stood to gain because, as you say, many people are easily influenced by what they're told and are pretty much spoon fed by tabloids etc. But the government would gain too, arguably... just like some people think that 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American government to keep people in 'perpetual' fear so that we would turn to our leaders to pull us out of the crisis and our faith in them would be restored, the swine flu thing could be perceived in a similar light.

I don't think the government 'controls' the media as such, but I do think they have a bit of a partnership and pay-outs etc. happen to keep both parties happy. The press get their ratings, the politicians get some stories 'tweaked', and all is fine to an unsuspecting public. I don't buy in to conspiracies really, I just think it's wiser to be open-minded about what's potentially happening in society than to be ignorant to the fact that there is an element of 'mind control', however subtle.

Yeah partly agree, though I also think that the Swine Flu thing could have possibly just have been a mistake. It was taken pretty seriously in the Health Service, you know, meetings, predictions, emergency plans, hygiene packs etc sent round everywhere (that wasn't public it was behind the scenes stuff). We all thought it was laughable (particularly as we worked in mental health :chuckle:) at the time and we turned out to be right, but I'm not sure if the Health Service would have taken that on board if it wasn't thought to be a serious threat. I think possibly we all have to be aware that there's an element of Fawlty Towers going on as well. :LOL:

Yeah. Cop out. See I've dismissed your stories and present the real facts, but you've decided to give up on the discussion and make accusations about me dismissing the "facts". I think this shows you haven't really been reading or paying attention.

Nah not cop out but a lack of thorough research as yet. I am not going to take anyone on their word, without looking at it myself. Personally I think that it is likely that some of it is true and some of it fallacy.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

:facepalm: :LOL:

Don't jump to conclusions about what I do & don't know and even who I know or whether I can or can't interpret something. Standard deviation tactic by people with your outlook, it's pathetic. :)

what i said was "standard deviation" ?, :LOL: , so every person that says the music industry is bad is going to tell you something similar to what i said, yer ok that makes sense, and are you suggesting you work high up in the marketing side of the music industry ?

your pathetic for thinking that us as a society dictates whats "cool" for the music industry, LMAO.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Yeah partly agree, though I also think that the Swine Flu thing could have possibly just have been a mistake. It was taken pretty seriously in the Health Service, you know, meetings, predictions, emergency plans, hygiene packs etc sent round everywhere (that wasn't public it was behind the scenes stuff). We all thought it was laughable (particularly as we worked in mental health :chuckle:) at the time and we turned out to be right, but I'm not sure if the Health Service would have taken that on board if it wasn't thought to be a serious threat. I think possibly we all have to be aware that there's an element of Fawlty Towers going on as well. :LOL:



Nah not cop out but a lack of thorough research as yet. I am not going to take anyone on their word, without looking at it myself. Personally I think that it is likely that some of it is true and some of it fallacy.

i cant believe you implied i havent done my research, oh man , :LOL:
i just cant understand yours and nials aspect of thinking the government is all sweet and rosy and do no wrong and "conspiracy theorists" have it all wrong. Am i wrong to presume this ? i would love to hear you guys try disprove alot of the "conspiracy theories"

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

i cant believe you implied i havent done my research, oh man , :LOL:
i just cant understand yours and nials aspect of thinking the government is all sweet and rosy and do no wrong and "conspiracy theorists" have it all wrong. Am i wrong to presume this ? i would love to hear you guys try disprove alot of the "conspiracy theories"

Where IS your research? Your scientific papers? I don't want to see anything coming from a news website or other third party source. Just the links to the scientific papers that you've researched.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Where IS your research? Your scientific papers? I don't want to see anything coming from a news website or other third party source. Just the links to the scientific papers that you've researched.

Its totally unfair to say you need scientific proof for everything i say, yet do you really live by this rule in the real world ? every point of view you have on certain topics, are they pre-determined or did you scientifically research your own answers ? If you are going to basically deny whatever i say , i want you to scientifically prove me wrong, with scientific papers. This is a taste of your own medicene, so what would you like me to try convince you of ?

[CarrieB]

i cant believe you implied i havent done my research, oh man , :LOL:
i just cant understand yours and nials aspect of thinking the government is all sweet and rosy and do no wrong and "conspiracy theorists" have it all wrong. Am i wrong to presume this ? i would love to hear you guys try disprove alot of the "conspiracy theories"

No you misread my post. What I said was that I hadn't researched enough as yet, though I have to say that my intuition tells me there's a fair amount of BS. That doesn't mean that I think all of it will be. I know there have been false flag incidents before, I know there is a corporatcracy, I know the media twist stuff and influence people and if you think I think the government is all sweet and rosy, you're having a laugh aren't you!? I just don't believe it's all orchestrated by one elite group of people.

[Niall]

Its totally unfair to say you need scientific proof for everything i say, yet do you really live by this rule in the real world ? every point of view you have on certain topics, are they pre-determined or did you scientifically research your own answers ? If you are going to basically deny whatever i say , i want you to scientifically prove me wrong, with scientific papers. This is a taste of your own medicene, so what would you like me to try convince you of ?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course everyone doesn't require scientific evidence for everything we say (although almost any true fact about the world will have been subject to research under one form of science or another). If you want to claim that, for example, swine flu vaccines cause paralysis or are being used for nefarious purposes, then you will be required to present some for of rigorous evidence to support this.

It isn't required for people to prove you wrong until you prove yourself correct. It's called the burden of proof, it's a commonly understood principle in matters of determining the truth, and is the basis behind things such as innocent until proven guilty, for an example in a non scientific context. It makes no sense for us to try and prove something wrong until you have attempted to prove it true. The knowledge a priori is that a swine flu vaccine is a swine flu vaccine. It is up to you to show that it is something that it is not currently understood to be.

It is extremely fair and expected for you to back up any claims you make with good evidence if anyone is going to listen to what you have to say.

[CarrieB]

lol i think you are in the middle, which is a good thing, you just need that little extra push to come onto myside :D

Actually despite posting this, not that it's true mind you, you continue to make stupid statements regarding my position. Spoiling for a fight much?! ;) :LOL:

[pinkfloyddsotm]

No you misread my post. What I said was that I hadn't researched enough as yet, though I have to say that my intuition tells me there's a fair amount of BS. That doesn't mean that I think all of it will be. I know there have been false flag incidents before, I know there is a corporatcracy, I know the media twist stuff and influence people and if you think I think the government is all sweet and rosy, you're having a laugh aren't you!? I just don't believe it's all orchestrated by one elite group of people.
ok im sorry

[CarrieB]

ok im sorry

Fair enough.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Of course everyone doesn't require scientific evidence for everything we say (although almost any true fact about the world will have been subject to research under one form of science or another). If you want to claim that, for example, swine flu vaccines cause paralysis or are being used for nefarious purposes, then you will be require to present some for of rigorous evidence to support this.

It isn't required for people to prove you wrong until you prove yourself correct. It's called the burden of proof, it's a commonly understood principle in matters of determining the truth, and is the basis behind things such as innocent until proven guilty, for an example in a non scientific context.

It is extremely fair and expected for you to back up any claims you make with good evidence if anyone is going to listen to what you have to say.

"It isn't required for people to prove you wrong until you prove yourself correct", this doesnt make sense, being correct is entirely up to the individual and how they percieve my information.
I can give citations on all the information i give, and their is "extraordinary evidence" on heaps of " conspiracy theories" , just got to filter through it all
Hell most of the shit i read hasnt got much to do with conspiracies, Im not into shit like "the moon landing was fake", im more into government,political ,scientific tyranny that has to do with the stripping of basic liberties and being a free individualist person and not being a controlled slave. idk its to diverse and ill start rambling again. :)

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Its totally unfair to say you need scientific proof for everything i say, yet do you really live by this rule in the real world ? every point of view you have on certain topics, are they pre-determined or did you scientifically research your own answers ? If you are going to basically deny whatever i say , i want you to scientifically prove me wrong, with scientific papers. This is a taste of your own medicene, so what would you like me to try convince you of ?

You're employing tactics of FUD (look it up). You're stating stuff you believe and you want others to believe but you're not backing it up with independent research.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

You're employing tactics of FUD (look it up). You're stating stuff you believe and you want others to believe but you're not backing it up with independent research.

interesting read , but i dont think so buddy. I couldnt care less if people dont believe me, im just simply putting it out there and people will find their own way into learning more, i dont feel like i have to prove anything, if people are interested ,which clearly was not the case in this thread, ill go further into detail instead of wasting my time.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

interesting read , but i dont think so buddy. I couldnt care less if people dont believe me, im just simply putting it out there and people will find their own way into learning more, i dont feel like i have to prove anything, if people are interested ,which clearly was not the case in this thread, ill go further into detail.

But you've been asked several times to cite independent references and failed to do so. That's an FUD tactic.

[Sippe]

Wow. Can't say that I know that much about these things, but this thread is hilarious.

Keep it up pinkfloyddsotm! With your argumentation technique you might actually fool someone without a single valid point in the future.

[CarrieB]

One other point is that while, okay it's right that any scams should be uncovered, anarchy for it's own sake is pretty pointless. I mean it could be said that people were more free when they went out and hunted and grew their own food, but I doubt there's many who would want to return to that lifestyle. There has to be some kind of structure in place so what do the conspiracy theorists suggest this should be? I mean apart from us all having some kind of awakening and recognising our collective consciousness. On a practical level?

Are they recommending communism? True communism that is.

[haze015]

what i said was "standard deviation" ?, :LOL: , so every person that says the music industry is bad is going to tell you something similar to what i said, yer ok that makes sense, and are you suggesting you work high up in the marketing side of the music industry ?

your pathetic for thinking that us as a society dictates whats "cool" for the music industry, LMAO.

It's more complicated than just society alone, there's more factors, but to suggested the industry itself can dictate what people like and buy is beyond stupid and lead it on from there into claims of brainwashing is even more than beyond stupid, whatever that may be.

The best selling commercial pop of the 80's and early 90's was actually an indie label (PWL, aka Stock, Aitken & Waterman) with no ties to the majors and the majors had to copy them to compete and you still see them following that model today as well as Madonna's approach, who also originally signed to an indie label, Sire (At the time anyway).

[Mozza]

Muse are on a major label...........................

[pinkfloyddsotm]

But you've been asked several times to cite independent references and failed to do so. That's an FUD tactic.

1. NWO-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E
A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

2. Swine Flu Vaccine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI
http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN
http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/
http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

3. Global Warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scienti fic_assessment_of_global_warming
http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/
the last link is one of the best ive found, just have a read through

4. Mind Control manipulation & setting of agenda's (through all mediums of entertainment)
This only needs one link as i think this site sums it up perfectly.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

Someone can remind me if i forgot any others as i cannot be fucked going back through 10 pages of what ive said, i could have posted many more resources but i doubt anyone will even read the links ive posted. Theres just so much info and disinfo you've got to filter through the shit but ive made up my mind yet still willing to swallow my pride if im wrong , which would take ALOT of evidence to change my mind.

[Niall]

"It isn't required for people to prove you wrong until you prove yourself correct", this doesnt make sense, being correct is entirely up to the individual and how they percieve my information.

Absolutely wrong, truth is not subjective. For example, 9/11 wasn't an inside job depending on whether someone thinks it is or not, it either is or it isn't. It makes perfect sense, whereas the idea that the truth is subjective is entirely incoherent.

I can give citations on all the information i give, and their is "extraordinary evidence" on heaps of " conspiracy theories" , just got to filter through it all
Hell most of the shit i read hasnt got much to do with conspiracies, Im not into shit like "the moon landing was fake", im more into government,political ,scientific tyranny that has to do with the stripping of basic liberties and being a free individualist person and not being a controlled slave. idk its to diverse and ill start rambling again. :)

You say you can give but you don't, despite numerous opportunities to do so, and make it out as if providing any kind of genuine evidence to support your claim is a mammoth effort and it'd be unreasonable for you to have to do so.

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

It's more complicated than just society alone, there's more factors, but to suggested the industry itself can dictate what people like and buy is beyond stupid and lead it on from there into claims of brainwashing is even more than beyond stupid, whatever that may be.
.

i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

[haze015]

i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

Then you're looking for a link and possibly trying to fit one to it all that isn't really there.

If somebody comes along and has a huge hit with a dark song with a dark video, it'll be copied to death. Rihanna (And everyone else who worked on it) came along with Umbrella and it sold by the bucketload... But it's not like any of these themes hadn't existed for decades within music beforehand anyway.

I believe Rihanna for that album worked with the director of some of Marilyn Manson's videos and Marilyn Manson's success was based around shocking people and shock tactics always work.

[Niall]

Hah. Apparently my prediction was slightly too late.

1. NWO-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988

Erm, what is this? Care to summarise? I flicked through and it has all kinds of nonsense about trying to control to world with sex education :erm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E

Youtube videos by infowars aren't objective evidence. And they're youtube videos.

A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

Lower populations should be a goal of every government because the world can't support a massive population. Everyone knows this. It isn't a secret.

2. Swine Flu Vaccine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI

Youtube...

http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN

I don't know what this is but it also talks about Roswell. I bet you believe in that one too :LOL:

http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/

Shows at best that vaccines sometimes contain chemicals that can be harmful, but it's very dubious by trying to show that squalene is harmful because of some tenuous links to GWS. Squalene is present in the human body naturally...

Can you not just post the research papers to show these things if they're indeed true rather than a blog with an agenda interpreting things from limited sources to draw conclusions?

http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

Based on that naturalnews thing that cites British tabloids as sources, not credible in the slightest.

3. Global Warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scienti fic_assessment_of_global_warming

The creationists pull this one too with their list of scientists who don't accept evolution. A list of scientists isn't evidence for anything, since there's probably a list 3000 times as long for all the mainstream scientists that do accept it. "Scientists" isn't very authoritative. If you had something like 73% of climatologists contest mm global warming then that'd be worthwhile, a list of scientists who range from physicists to chemists who know little about the climate means nothing.

http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html

Too silly to really comment on. The first point is entirely wrong, see above for why.
All the other points are indeed wrong and it'd take a minute for each to see why (plenty of evidence that gw is happening, modest warming would be good, models too crude), and the article has zero to few citations, let alone scientific citation, so it really is of little worth.

I can;t be bothered with this any more because the above are nonsense, and it shows you have little ability to discern trustworthy sources, and that should worry you deeply, because if you can't grasp what kind of source is a good place to find information, then how can you ever trust in what you're reading?

Read up on the skills required to judge the authority and trustworthiness of sources (I guess you missed those classes in school..)

[Niall]

i know its complicated and i dont want to feel like im being condescending towards you but you got to admit alot of todays mainstream pop music videos are containing alot more darker and symbolic imagery whether it be phallic symbols , murder, masochism, police state milliterization style imagery, bondage, One has to think what this all means and why ? There's a ton of different theories.

Yeah. Those things make a video interesting, exciting and/or sexy. It doesn't have to mean more than what it is on the surface. You;re specifically looking for it to be something more than what it is and question begging as if there really is something else going on. It's a little deceptive. And just because there "theories", which are in fact mainly fantasies, it doesn't give the idea that something secret is going on any credence.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Absolutely wrong, truth is not subjective. For example, 9/11 wasn't an inside job depending on whether someone thinks it is or not, it either is or it isn't. It makes perfect sense, whereas the idea that the truth is subjective is entirely incoherent.

You say you can give but you don't, despite numerous opportunities to do so, and make it out as if providing any kind of genuine evidence to support your claim is a mammoth effort and it'd be unreasonable for you to have to do so.

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

wow going very philosophical on the subjective debate, it is understandable though.

and their are a few credible legit sites i visit to gain another perspective on subject matters, its just you could say the same thing with gathering your intel from a wherever you get yours from ,every site has got their own motivations.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

1. NWO-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19826455/New-World-Order-The-Randy-Engel-Dr-Larry-Dunegan-Tapes-Fom-19691988
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO24XmP1c5E
A ton of quoted references proving depopulation is part of the agenda
http://forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=129082.0

2. Swine Flu Vaccine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0gvDkVcFkI
http://www.wijwordenwakker.org/content.asp?m=M101&s=M106&ss=P733&l=EN
http://1phil4everyill.wordpress.com/2009/10/22/proof-that-european-h1n1-vaccines-contain-mercury-squalene-and-tween-80/
http://mmsforhispaniola.com/?p=1017

3. Global Warming
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scienti fic_assessment_of_global_warming
http://www.aproundtable.org/tps30info/globalwarmup.html
http://scienceandpublicpolicy.org/
the last link is one of the best ive found, just have a read through

4. Mind Control manipulation & setting of agenda's (through all mediums of entertainment)
This only needs one link as i think this site sums it up perfectly.
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571

Someone can remind me if i forgot any others as i cannot be fucked going back through 10 pages of what ive said, i could have posted many more resources but i doubt anyone will even read the links ive posted. Theres just so much info and disinfo you've got to filter through the shit but ive made up my mind yet still willing to swallow my pride if im wrong , which would take ALOT of evidence to change my mind.

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

Nailed it! :LOL:

[Niall]

See that's where you're wrong. Not everyone has "motivations" beyond presenting true information (despite your cynical world view), and I get my information from as objective sources I can find. You have to look beyond the "site" of course, a website on it's own is just text on a page, you have to be critical of where the information is coming from.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

i guess we just wait and see...

[CarrieB]

And when you dog et round to it, I doubt th evidence will be credible. Probably just some dodgy youtube videos and conspiracy propaganda sites with obvious agenda.

What do you think the underlying agenda is Niall?

Incidentally I don't automatically doubt the integrity of people who believe the information from these sites, even if there are better resources, but I just wonder whether anyone has found an underlying reason for the propaganda other than true concern regarding the situation.

[Zaphod Chizzlebrox]

Yeah. Those things make a video interesting, exciting and/or sexy. It doesn't have to mean more than what it is on the surface. You;re specifically looking for it to be something more than what it is and question begging as if there really is something else going on. It's a little deceptive. And just because there "theories", which are in fact mainly fantasies, it doesn't give the idea that something secret is going on any credence.

It's an example of how cold readers work as well...because there are always people willing to see connections in things, even if the cold reader just puts out a generic statement.

Citing small examples from third-party sources does not creditable research make, as Yoda would probably say. That Scribd site, for example, was just one guy saying things he thought were true but have no proof of them, like the cancer claim. Another example of FUD, as he claims cancer can be cured but surprise surprise, the alleged evidence is safely locked away somewhere.

The Bill Gates thing was him talking about how to reduced CO2 levels, not population levels, it's a case of people looking for something and twisting it to fit their own means.

The swine flu/Thiomeral thing is rubbish as well, Thiomeral is used only in multi-purpose vaccines like MMR etc. The only reason people think it was linked with autism was because the FDA requested manufacturers to remove Thiomeral from their vaccines, which led to people being convinced that there was a link, when the scientific consensus throughout the world is that there is no link between Thiomeral and autism.

Flu vaccines in general are usually only given to the most vulnerable because of the cost of providing vaccines. And if the vaccines were truly dangerous we'd have been seeing much more of a mortality rate during the flu season in the elderly and in those with weak immune systems, but we don't.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/vaccination/effectivenessqa.htm shows the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing influenza illnesses and explains how this effectiveness is measured.

[Niall]

What do you think the underlying agenda is Niall?

Incidentally I don't doubt the integrity of people who believe the information from these sites, even if there are better resources, but I just wonder whether anyone has found an underlying reason for the propaganda.

Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

I think their integrity is totally open to question, at least, in that they are obviously greatly unaware of what constitutes a reliable, authorative and unbiased source of information.

[pinkfloyddsotm]

Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

so you will agree that CIA helped fund,train and arm the taliban as per leaked wikileak documents ? is this something we agree on ?
i use to believe in global warming as i live on the beach noticed sand dune erosion was becomming worse and thought it was due to rising sea levels LMAO. I was naive and was just followin the mainstream consensus. If you wont read into the opposing global warming story and disprove it then how do you know ? and how could you want to be taxed even more if they bring in some carbon tax or ETS , Australia as it is , is already one of the highest tax countries in the world and we dont need anymore ! Even if it is true, their has to be some alternative way to overcome it.

[CarrieB]

Depends on the conspiracy under discussion, but it would be to push that conspiracy. To prove that there is some sort of secret NWO thing or that 9/11 was the work of the US gov or that global warming doesn't exist or isn't man made and so on. infowars makes no attempt to appear unbiased.

Compare that to something like NewScientist or an even better source, such as arXiv or PubMed that are purely archives, or something like Wikileaks that has probably been the only good source of leaked secrets there is. No agendas other than to have the interesting truth published.

I think their integrity is totally open to question, at least, in that they are obviously greatly unaware of what constitutes a reliable, authorative and unbiased source of information.

Yeah I don't mean bias, I'm referring to agenda. I'm wondering what agenda for instance would be behind the wish to produce false or unbalanced information to support claims that there's a secret NWO. I'm not necessarily expecting you to know btw.

I think I can possibly guess at the agenda behind disputing a human element to global warming and the agenda behind disputing evolutionary theory.

[Mozza]

These things get started because of paranoia. And for the same reasons as religious cults, to gain that sense of importance that people follow your every word and that the majority are wrong.

[haze015]

These things get started because of paranoia. And for the same reasons as religious cults, to gain that sense of importance that people follow your every word and that the majority are wrong.

It's more than just paranoia, it can also be manipulation & exploitation of vulnerable people by feeding them a bunch of overblown fantasies of government and corporate manipulation.

The Matrix was ultimately about two forms of control, both were fantasy worlds, one being a false reality, the other fighting to free those from the false reality despite being in a false reality themselves. The "red pill" only took them to the second form of control.

[CarrieB]

It's more than just paranoia, it can also be manipulation & exploitation of vulnerable people by feeding them a bunch of overblown fantasies of government and corporate manipulation.

The Matrix was ultimately about two forms of control, both were fantasy worlds, one being a false reality, the other fighting to free those from the false reality despite being in a false reality themselves. The "red pill" only took them to the second form of control.

Skinner (a psychologist and big contributor to the theory that all of our behaviour is the result of conditioning through experience) argued in his book "Beyond Freedom and Dignity" that throughout history, what has been seen as a struggle for freedom is actually not a wish to have free will, but to avoid detrimental experiences, and the issue at stake was not to remove control, but to concentrate on the form of control to which an individual would be exposed. Your comment on the Matrix reminded me of that. I had to do an essay on free will. :)

Actually I just looked at the back of the book and it says "so - in this book which some might prefer to see published in 1984 - " :shifty: :LOL: I didn't notice that before.

I find this sort of stuff fascinating actually. And it has been my feeling that to believe in all the weird ideas, and, by that, I mean the extreme stuff regarding occult symbolism, NWO, handlers, brain control, alluminati, control by paedophiles etc :eek: not the stuff about government corruption, media influence and capitalism which I think has basis, there must be some "brainwashing" going on.

I'm going to ramble on here so ignore anyone who has an aversion to long posts, but studies and events have shown that people can be convinced to believe in quite extreme things, and perform extreme acts, under certain conditions. There was an event where hundreds of people were persuaded to kill themselves by knowingly drinking something (?kool aid containing arsenic - I've been trying to find the information again) by the leader of a cult, even giving the drink to their children, About 200 children died.

The conditions which produced this event were things like a charismatic leader, a feeling of alienation from society by the people involved, isolation and the promise of a good afterlife. Scary stuff. I'm not saying that to be sensationalist but I just wonder if any of the characteristics of the individuals involved are shared by people who believe unquestionably in the more extreme conspiracy theories.