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View Full Version : Do you find that "hipsters" often hate Muse? And is it mainly because of Pitchfork?


Slick
22-12-2009, 08:03 AM
Okay, for starters, I am in no way trying to generalize anyone, nor am I claiming that negative opinions of Muse are invalid.

But a lot of my friends around here (Seattle) seem to have an irrational hatred for the band. They're generally into indie rock, usually lo-fi stuff that tends to bore me. I only use the term "hipster," by the way, because that's what they're generally called, but I usually refer to them as "indie kids" if I have to label people. :p I mention Muse a lot in conversations about music, and I'm surprised at how many people consistently rank Muse among their worst or most hated bands.

I feel like this hatred toward Muse is fueled mostly by the fact that they don't have a minimalist, lo-fi sound. From what I've noticed, websites like Pitchfork (worshiped to an unhealthy degree by Seattle indie kids) like to imply that liking grandiose, "over-the-top" music is the same thing as having bad taste. Now, I can see how Muse's style and lack of subtlety might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't get why that makes them so deserving of animosity. I also don't believe for a second that there even is such a thing as "bad taste" in music.

I think a lot of this is just my annoyance at Pitchfork for targeting Muse so heavily. And I guess I can see why; Muse is the opposite of everything these people look for. But why is it that Pitchfork and the indie/"hipster" community get to decide that minimalism and avant-garde lo-fi is now synonymous with "good taste"?:confused:

Obi
22-12-2009, 01:11 PM
I agree to an extent. I mean, I love a lot of minimalist music (piano-wise in particular) and lots of ambient stuff. However a good dose of OTT is great every now and then.

Pitchfork are generally elitist buggers though. Once they get an idea in their head, it's hard to change their mind.

Wendigo
22-12-2009, 01:23 PM
I don't know, I've never knowingly met a hipster.

Obi
22-12-2009, 03:40 PM
I don't know, I've never knowingly met a hipster.

That's because they don't leave their houses.

Juicy Boy
22-12-2009, 03:49 PM
I was under the general impression that hipsters were the kind of people who listen to slightly left-of-center stuff, like The Killers, Manchester Orchestra, MGMT, etc. I usually refer to the indie people as just "indie kids."

I actually used to consider myself a hipster, until I realized that I'm not really in-line with them (and that the term "hipster" tends to be derogatory). Now I just refuse to define myself.

On the topic of Pitchfork: yes, they tend to be elitist, and rather vitriolic about it as well. I believe someone on these forums put it best when they said Pitchfork's opinion usually boils down to "This fails to be indie rock in every sense of the word. It also sounds exactly like Radiohead. The end."

Wendigo
22-12-2009, 03:50 PM
That's because they don't leave their houses.

I kind of doubt they exist.

Furygirl
22-12-2009, 04:35 PM
I use the term hipster alot, but it's mostly my silly, slightly negative, middle-aged way to refer to the "cool kids." I don't think Muse is dark enough for the indie crowd. And the way Matt has been dressing lately is probably seen as too "off the wall" for the indie hipsters.

Obi
22-12-2009, 11:15 PM
I kind of doubt they exist.

That's because no hipster openly admits it. It's an unwritten rule of being a hipster, to say you are a hipster would mean you're not a hipster.

You know deep down who is one though. ;)

Yeah, I'm talking bollocks now but even check Urban Dictionary - it's all there :ninja:

Obi
22-12-2009, 11:17 PM
I was under the general impression that hipsters were the kind of people who listen to slightly left-of-center stuff, like The Killers, Manchester Orchestra, MGMT, etc. I usually refer to the indie people as just "indie kids."

Not sure about that. Killers are as mainstream/centre/middle-of-the-road you can get.

When I think of Hipsters I tend to think of "Lo-Fi" groups and "Folktronica" or whatever they call it.

-megan-
22-12-2009, 11:26 PM
I think of myself as an indie/hipster kid.
Not afraid to admit it. :P
and I ADORE Muse. :LOL:

I do know a lot of other indie kids who dislike them though, it amazes me. And they're are usually supposed to be the ones with the cool taste in music. :rolleyes:

futurellama
23-12-2009, 12:43 AM
Three reasons: Pitchfork, Twilight, pisspoor singles

choco_chia83
23-12-2009, 02:52 AM
That's because they don't leave their houses.

and they spend their time on /mu/, bashing metalheads and kissing Thom Yorke's ass.

supermassive_cave
23-12-2009, 03:01 AM
i really dont have an opinion on this cuz i dont know any hipsters and dont even bother to visit pitchfork, so yeah.
btw-megan-your av is :awesome:

syzygy
23-12-2009, 03:08 AM
I like Indie...like Kasabian and stuff like that who are called 'Indie' but I'm not a big fan of all the independent labels. I'm not sure what they're supposed to be called :LOL:

If I'm not mistaken all of the really annoying bands like All Time Low are supposed to be 'indie' right? They're pretty mainstream. I bet these Pitchfork people don't like Muse because everyone in Europe is talking about them and not the beloved crap bands like All Time Low.

Imo.

-megan-
23-12-2009, 03:56 AM
btw-megan-your av is :awesome:

Thanks ! :awesome:

Davinq
23-12-2009, 07:06 AM
Good post Slick!

I'm a Seattleite at the moment and have noticed the exact same thing. I think one of the contributing factors is that a large number of touring bands tend to neglect Seattle, meaning that our homegrown music scene is all the kiddos have to live on. Granted, it's good stuff, but so is Muse.

Of my hipster friends though, I would have to disagree and say that they can see Pitchfork for what it is. Most of them are culturally observant to a fault, and Pitchfork is 'pretentious as fuck,' apparently.

If I'm not mistaken all of the really annoying bands like All Time Low are supposed to be 'indie' right? They're pretty mainstream. I bet these Pitchfork people don't like Muse because everyone in Europe is talking about them and not the beloved crap bands like All Time Low.

Is that supposed to be sarcasm? :erm: All Time Low are poop punk. They're signed to an indie label, but that's an indie label, not indie the genre, or indie the hipster. Confused?

lyricalwax
23-12-2009, 07:13 AM
I like Indie...like Kasabian and stuff like that who are called 'Indie' but I'm not a big fan of all the independent labels. I'm not sure what they're supposed to be called :LOL:

If I'm not mistaken all of the really annoying bands like All Time Low are supposed to be 'indie' right? They're pretty mainstream. I bet these Pitchfork people don't like Muse because everyone in Europe is talking about them and not the beloved crap bands like All Time Low.

Imo.

lol, All Time Low aren't a hipster band, they're pop punk at best and are probably more hated by Pitchfork/hipsters than Muse. Same with Killers or MGMT that was mentioned earlier. They tend to like lo-fi bands like Beirut, Bon Iver, Portishead, or experimental noise rock bands like Sonic Youth or Animal Collective, which are fairly unknown compared to mainstream stuff. Of course the holy grail for them is Radiohead :rolleyes:

With regards to the OP, I'm guessing it's because they're fairly over the top and over-produced, and have a few cheesy singles here and there (which I love by the way). Certainly they were praised more in the Showbiz/Origin days.
Although I wouldn't class myself as 'a hipster' (I hate that term anyway), I have to admit I don't exactly shout about my love for Muse amongst some of my friends, but whatever, their loss really.

Books
23-12-2009, 07:16 AM
All I know is that hipster kids intimidate the crap out of my American Eagle wearing ass. Although I do like Radiohead, The Killers, MGMT and Kasabian. :chuckle:

I have honestly come across people who will wear anything and everything that American Apparel churns out. Even sparkly gold leggings. To class.

syzygy
23-12-2009, 11:17 PM
Good post Slick!

I'm a Seattleite at the moment and have noticed the exact same thing. I think one of the contributing factors is that a large number of touring bands tend to neglect Seattle, meaning that our homegrown music scene is all the kiddos have to live on. Granted, it's good stuff, but so is Muse.

Of my hipster friends though, I would have to disagree and say that they can see Pitchfork for what it is. Most of them are culturally observant to a fault, and Pitchfork is 'pretentious as fuck,' apparently.



Is that supposed to be sarcasm? :erm: All Time Low are poop punk. They're signed to an indie label, but that's an indie label, not indie the genre, or indie the hipster. Confused?

Ahh okay. I was just making sure ;)
That's what I thought but stupid people keep telling me differently. Thanks :happy:

But yes, I like Indie.

Namey
23-12-2009, 11:25 PM
Liking a band/piece of music simply because it fits into a certain genre or is in keeping with a self-image you've constructed is completely daft.

If I like the way I feel when I hear a song, I like the song, end of.

Namey
23-12-2009, 11:28 PM
also, there is nothing attractive about a boy in leggings, a wannabe-jew-fro and a v-neck tshirt. Shave and do something proactive, you bum:LOL:

Slick
25-12-2009, 11:26 AM
With regards to the OP, I'm guessing it's because they're fairly over the top and over-produced, and have a few cheesy singles here and there (which I love by the way). Certainly they were praised more in the Showbiz/Origin days.

I don't really understand the problem with something being "overproduced." That term is used so ubiquitously nowadays; elitist hipster/indie types seem to apply it to anything with good production values. Since when are high production values bad? :rolleyes:

The only songs that are "overproduced," to me (although I wouldn't use that term) are songs like "No Air" by Chris Brown and Jordin Sparks where the synth is extremely heavy and there's too much going on. I've never found any of Muse's songs to be like this (except maybe the very end of Take a Bow).

I think a lot of indie kids use it as an insult so that they can take pride in their lo-fi stuff. It's fine if you like lo-fi, but there's nothing objectively worse about a well-produced song.

Liking a band/piece of music simply because it fits into a certain genre or is in keeping with a self-image you've constructed is completely daft.

If I like the way I feel when I hear a song, I like the song, end of.

I completely agree. As I said, taste is 100% subjective. I probably have the same philosophy toward music as you in that it's a song-by-song thing. I usually only have one or two songs by any given artist on my iPod/playlist.

Orpheus3
30-10-2011, 07:52 PM
My friends and I all love the same music.If you met us, you'd call us hipsters because we *do* adore all that lo-fi minimalist stuff. I'm a huge fan of the more electronic side like Bonobo, Caribou, Yeasayer, and whatnot.

But I adore Muse, and my friends don't. My best friend says "sometimes Muse is just way too epic." My other friend just outright hates them. Then again, Sun Kil Moon and Fleet Foxes are his favorite bands. To me there is simply no such thing as too epic. In fact the more epic, the better (exception: The Resistance did not have enough psychotic falsetto moments)'

The hipster crowd doesn't like Muse because of two things:

1) Matthew Bellamy and Thom Yorke both sound like Jeff Buckley, and Radiohead is Jesus. So Muse is the Anti-Christ.

2) Muse aren't ironic about their penchant for the hysterics and scale, i.e., the glitter is used whole heartedly, the Spinal Tap moments aren't jokes, and the multitracked Mercury vocals are zealously employed.

Plus Pitchfork is so into their view of indie authenticity that anything a brash and massive as Muse is automatically meh'd. They get on Kings of Leon's newer material for sounding more like a southern U2 (fuck, I do too. That band used to be golden) and hate Coldplay for ever making music.

Meep
30-10-2011, 08:07 PM
Nah, more likely that starlight was shite?

Morinphen
30-10-2011, 09:05 PM
Muse aren't ironic about their penchant for the hysterics and scale, i.e., the glitter is used whole heartedly, the Spinal Tap moments aren't jokes, and the multitracked Mercury vocals are zealously employed.

"Knights of Cydonia is obviously a joke. Esseentially, we approach music the same way Monty Python did comedy" (Matt Bellamy, Q Magazine, September 2007).

P.S. Way to resurrect a thread from the dead.

mjartrod
31-10-2011, 01:48 AM
1) matthew bellamy and thom yorke both sound like jeff buckley, and radiohead is jesus. So muse is the anti-christ.

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Orpheus3
31-10-2011, 10:01 PM
"Knights of Cydonia is obviously a joke. Esseentially, we approach music the same way Monty Python did comedy" (Matt Bellamy, Q Magazine, September 2007).

P.S. Way to resurrect a thread from the dead.

You're welcome.

He says its a joke and in many ways it is (look no further than the video) but it's not the level of hipster irony that is required to be "cool".

I'll put it this way, if M83 did a song that epic (and they have) but they use some elements that are less cartoonish, i.e., shoegaze mumble vocals drenched in reverb, a must for trendiness, Pitchfork and the kids with empty frames and angular haircuts would go nuts for it.

I mean, if Matthew Bellamy took himself seriously, I don't think anyone would like the band. But he's dead serious about being ridiculous.

Aquifa
01-11-2011, 12:38 AM
Though the two hipsters I've talked both don't care for Muse, I don't think they know about Pitchfork. I don't want them to.

Kueller917
01-11-2011, 01:23 AM
I know a self-proclaimed hipster that has listened to Muse, and likes some songs. However, I see that the more extreme music elitists (like /mu/ or something) tend to have a general dislike towards Muse.

chudenk
05-11-2011, 11:13 AM
Pitchfuck.

Jobby
07-11-2011, 03:38 PM
In fairness, the Muse fanbase has it's own 'hipsters'. The people who say "Oh I prefer old Muse because they made proper rock music then". That's perfectly acceptable in my opinion though considering Muse has changed their direction in music in recent years.

But that's been discussed many, many times on this board so I won't bother saying any more :rolleyes:

agenthal
07-11-2011, 07:50 PM
I live in the land of hipsters aka Austin. We attract them from all over the world for SXSW. I don't know what I am because I love all the hipster music like Little Dragon and Warpaint and Yuck, etc etc. I could go on forever. And I definitely liked bands like Foster the People before they got popular, lol. But at the same time, I love Muse and Biffy Clyro, so I guess I can't really be called a hipster as most people think of it... I know tons of hipsters though, and some of them do like Muse. I'd say the more open-minded ones about music, like me. The elitist hipsters don't like Muse because they're too mainstream, I'd say. They say they're "shit music" and would say the same about the Foo Fighters, Coldplay, etc, yet still go watch them headline Coachella. Basically, my theory is a good percentage of them actually do like this sort of music but wouldn't be caught dead giving them a good review and such and lose their indie cred.

Princess of Promise
07-11-2011, 08:39 PM
They think Muse is too "mainstream".

Banksy.
07-11-2011, 11:30 PM
Basically, my theory is a good percentage of them actually do like this sort of music but wouldn't be caught dead giving them a good review and such and lose their indie cred.

/endthread

Alec.
08-11-2011, 05:16 PM
I just find Pitchfork irksome. To be honest, they don't just blind themselves to the fact that accessible music can be brilliant, but they convince themselves that because something's not conventional, it must be a masterpiece (see King of Limbs, which I just fail to enjoy at all).

I'm not sure why they didn't go for NIN's "Year Zero", which is about as weird as you can get and is also brilliant.

I like some bands that hipsters claim as their own, but that said I'm also fond of bands that they despise on principle- Slipknot (except for one or two tracks on Iowa), Biffy, LP and Fightstar.

garytang182
12-02-2013, 10:00 PM
I think the reason why people hate it is

1. Twilight fans
So people hate twilight to the extent of finding any strands to it (not saying i'm a twilight fan I dislike it too)

2. They just don't like it
If you don't like it then it is your opinion and YOURS alone doesn't give you the reason to try make fans of it stray away from something they like.

3. Sounds like Radiohead
I've never personality ever listen to Radiohead but after a dozen years they can't still sound like them (or in the first place) plus they're a band that try's to explore many different genres like said many times.

4. Repetitive
People say they're sick of hearing the same song over and over again (not like i have the luxury since i'm Canadian) but if it's so annoying simple solution TURN TO A DIFFERENT STATION.

5. Atheist
It's their belief there opinion on life not yours

Hope i don't start a fight with the last one :stunned:

fabripav
12-02-2013, 10:01 PM
wat

Tjet
12-02-2013, 10:02 PM
5. Atheist
It's their belief there opinion on life not yours
Please explain this one :LOL:

Also, you got it right the first time.

eyduh
12-02-2013, 10:10 PM
I think the reason why people hate it is

1. Twilight fans
So people hate twilight to the extent of finding any strands to it (not saying i'm a twilight fan I dislike it too)

2. They just don't like it
If you don't like it then it is your opinion and YOURS alone doesn't give you the reason to try make fans of it stray away from something they like.

3. Sounds like Radiohead
I've never personality ever listen to Radiohead but after a dozen years they can't still sound like them (or in the first place) plus they're a band that try's to explore many different genres like said many times.

4. Repetitive
People say they're sick of hearing the same song over and over again (not like i have the luxury since i'm Canadian) but if it's so annoying simple solution TURN TO A DIFFERENT STATION.

5. Atheist
It's their belief there opinion on life not yours

Hope i don't start a fight with the last one :stunned:

i've just been mindfucked

i dont even think Muse are atheists, if that's what you were getting at

Tjet
12-02-2013, 10:13 PM
i've just been mindfucked

i dont even think Muse are atheists, if that's what you were getting at
BUT BUT THOUGHTS OF A DYING ATHEIST.

Oh wait Matt mentions God in Fury.

WHY WOULD HE WRITE SONGS ABOUT THESE THINGS IF HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THEM?

eyduh
12-02-2013, 10:18 PM
but but thoughts of a dying atheist.

Oh wait matt mentions god in fury.

Why would he write songs about these things if he doesn't believe in them?

i dont think i can like muse if they're not atheists!!!!!

fabripav
12-02-2013, 10:18 PM
WHY WOULD HE WRITE SONGS ABOUT THESE THINGS IF HE DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THEM?

Because he's a moron.

Tjet
12-02-2013, 10:23 PM
i dont think i can like muse if they're not atheists!!!!!
Christian rock is the worst.
Because he's a moron.
Oh Fabri.

fabripav
12-02-2013, 10:28 PM
Oh Fabri.

http://i.imgur.com/YQILS.png

Kueller917
12-02-2013, 10:29 PM
dafuq

Seaking
12-02-2013, 10:52 PM
Regardless of whether or not they like Muse if someone has ever referred to themselves as a "hipster" than they are probably douchebags.

Also, being atheist adds like 9000 points to your coolness meter.

SerpentSatellite
12-02-2013, 10:55 PM
Isn't the point of being a hipster that you just bitch about everything?
I thought it was a 'movement' that involved being a dick to everyone about what they like.
*shrug*



i dont even think Muse are atheists, if that's what you were getting at

Matt's made a really good case for being agnostic, at least, but hasn't really mentioned it since like 2001.
I really couldn't give two shits either way, but I really imagine the number of people who would be turned off of Muse by that would be really small...
Or Christian music would be MUCH more mainstream.

darksky
13-02-2013, 01:43 AM
Isn't the point of being a hipster that you just bitch about everything?

:stunned:

:erm:

Dave
13-02-2013, 02:13 AM
Isn't the point of being a hipster that you just bitch about everything?
I thought it was a 'movement' that involved being a dick to everyone about what they like.
*shrug*

Generally being called a hipster is an outside thing. For example, I'm called a hipster by my friends when I mention a band like The Antlers or The Joy Formidable. Whereas some people on here know bands that are in sub genres of genres I didn't even know were possible.

This post was pointless. Thank you for wasting your time.

Kueller917
13-02-2013, 02:17 AM
I'm called a hipster by my friends when I mention a band like The Antlers or The Joy Formidable.

lol

SerpentSatellite
13-02-2013, 02:33 AM
Generally being called a hipster is an outside thing. For example, I'm called a hipster by my friends when I mention a band like The Antlers or The Joy Formidable. Whereas some people on here know bands that are in sub genres of genres I didn't even know were possible.

This post was pointless. Thank you for wasting your time.

Yeah, you would think it would be hard to top wasting time arguing about whether Muse songs are shitty or not on the internet, but I persevere.

garytang182
13-02-2013, 03:30 PM
"Being an atheist means you have to realise that when you die, that really is it. You've got to make the most of what you've got here and spread as much influence as you can. I believe that you only live through the influence that you spread, whether that means having a kid or making music."

it's what Matt said so I take a guess that he's atheist not sure about the rest :eyebrows:

fabripav
13-02-2013, 03:32 PM
:eyebrows:

:eyebrows:

Tjet
13-02-2013, 03:37 PM
"Being an atheist means you have to realise that when you die, that really is it. You've got to make the most of what you've got here and spread as much influence as you can. I believe that you only live through the influence that you spread, whether that means having a kid or making music."

it's what Matt said so I take a guess that he's atheist not sure about the rest :eyebrows:He didn't actually say he was an atheist though.

SerpentSatellite
13-02-2013, 04:21 PM
He strongly implied it, but he's also straight out said he was writing songs about his attempt to find a religion that works for him, and how he hasn't found anything.
Then, looking at the content of the songs in that light, they do seem to really point towards wanting to be religious simply because he wants to believe life means more than it does.
And that really often makes BELIEVING in religion difficult.
Again, assuming. And also not really mentioned in the last decade.

Anyways, here's why people don't like Muse, or pretend not to, imo:
- They're terribly popular in some places, which makes them uncool
- They often don't take themselves very seriously, in their music and live shows as well; people can feel like being into art that doesn't take itself seriously as "art" can reflect on their personality.
I've noticed this is huge with my peers. And more "fun" bands are strictly considered a "kids only" thing, or for people who aren't ashamed of their "bad taste."

sade
13-02-2013, 04:53 PM
Generally being called a hipster is an outside thing. For example, I'm called a hipster by my friends when I mention a band like The Antlers or The Joy Formidable. Whereas some people on here know bands that are in sub genres of genres I didn't even know were possible.


Kind of from the same vein, the best explanation of what is a "hipster" I've heard so far:
http://i47.tinypic.com/2qcdppv.jpg

I don't think the deciding issue (with music elitists hating Muse) is popularity per se. Radiohead is hugely popular, and I would think the average "hipster" likes/at least respects them (Nor is it the Twilight thing, for the matter of fact: artists like Thom Yorke, Bon Iver, Death Cab for Cutie and Lykke Li all participated in the New Moon soundtrack and have their street cred intact).

It comes down to the whole lo-fi sound&aesthetic being the ideal to aspire to, imo. Muse are shamessly commercial and accessible with their catchiness, and the more "out there" moments like Micro Cuts were examples tend to lack nuance in their in-your-faceness. Or they are perceived as following [Radiohead, Jeff Buckley, etc] rather than leading in the music scene.

haze015
13-02-2013, 05:06 PM
If you can spell the bands you listen to using a conventional alphabet, then you're not a hipster.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puLDuV3azbA

SerpentSatellite
13-02-2013, 05:12 PM
I do find that as hugely popular as Radiohead is, though, I've only really known one person who actually LIKED them.
It's the other side of the coin... Radiohead is so acclaimed, and "cool" that it's a bit embarassing to say you don't like them, or never actually listened to them. :LOL:

eyduh
13-02-2013, 06:30 PM
"Being an atheist means you have to realise that when you die, that really is it. You've got to make the most of what you've got here and spread as much influence as you can. I believe that you only live through the influence that you spread, whether that means having a kid or making music."

it's what Matt said so I take a guess that he's atheist not sure about the rest :eyebrows:

When I was 12 a nun explained to my class what an atheist was.

So she's atheist, too?

SerpentSatellite
13-02-2013, 06:43 PM
The first part of his statement would be rather pointless, however, in light of the last part.
Not that that would be terribly unusual for the steam of consciousness way Matt speaks, at times.
So, you can see why people read it that way.
(ie: atheists have to live on through influence they leave behind; I believe that and try to live my life that way.)

This is a sensitive subject, even though it effects us in no way whatsoever? :unsure:

Tjet
13-02-2013, 06:45 PM
The first part of his statement would be rather pointless, however, in light of the last part.
Not that that would be terribly unusual for the steam of consciousness way Matt speaks, at times.
So, you can see why people read it that way.
(ie: atheists have to live on through influence they leave behind; I believe that and try to live my life that way.)

This is a sensitive subject, even though it effects us in no way whatsoever? :unsure:
And at the same time the quote could have been taken completely out of its context.

In any case, it's definitely not proving anything about what Matt is.

SerpentSatellite
13-02-2013, 07:50 PM
It's not the only quote, but context/drugs could be a factor in just about all of them that I remember. :LOL:
Could play that game all day, so I won't bother quoting unless someone wants.

Doesn't touch the question pertaining to the topic, though: WHY would it matter to anyone if any of the three were atheists, or not? Why would it impact if people would like the band or not, as someone posed earlier?

sade
14-02-2013, 07:43 AM
Doesn't touch the question pertaining to the topic, though: WHY would it matter to anyone if any of the three were atheists, or not? Why would it impact if people would like the band or not, as someone posed earlier?

It's a bit naive to ask that question. It shouldn't matter, but since religion is such a touchy subject, obviously people do care. People project their own beliefs on their idols all the time, because people feel a connection to the people idolize and want them to have similar thoughts and beliefs as they do.

In a way I do understand it, because if I learned that someone I idolize is a e.g. young earth creatonist with a "homosexiality is wrong" stance or a Catholic who opposes condom use, I would be disappointed. It wouldn't necessarily affect my liking of the music, but I wouldn't have the same level of respect for them.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 04:07 PM
Actually, I view it as quite the opposite of a naive question.
I know the answer is basically exactly what you posted, but I also find that that sort of thinking is quite problematic.
It might seem a little innocuous projecting your values on artists, and of course it will have little to no real world impact... but it's a symptom of an issue on a much larger scale.
I'm not calling anyone out on it, but I always think it's a good thing to take a step back and try and realize WHY something would bother you.
And, while I get the comparision, someone being maybe agnostic/atheist would be far more innocent than someone being anti-homosexuality, etc.

There's also a stigma against atheists that really... just isn't true. The only atheists who really discuss their "beliefs" are the ones who look down on the people who they believe are religious out of some sort of idiocy, etc.
The rest of them... just don't have anything to discuss. :p
I, for one, am always a little sad when I find out someone else is an atheist, because you just lack the comforts of meaning to life, and afterlife; that can be a really traumatic thing to deal with. I wouldn't actually push it on anyone.

And well, OT, Muse has, at worst, written some songs questioning religious aspects, or dealing with a crisis of faith in a way, and aren't actually AVOCATING anything.
I feel kind of sad that people would be negative about that, instead of it invoking the sort of sadness and empathy that it should. It's much more real and human than songs about space aliens and conspiracy theories.

haze015
14-02-2013, 04:56 PM
What has any of this got to do with us sexy, sexy hipsters?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/hipsters-are-better-than-you-say-researchers-2013021259405

eyduh
14-02-2013, 06:50 PM
There's also a stigma against atheists that really... just isn't true. The only atheists who really discuss their "beliefs" are the ones who look down on the people who they believe are religious out of some sort of idiocy, etc.
The rest of them... just don't have anything to discuss. :p
I, for one, am always a little sad when I find out someone else is an atheist, because you just lack the comforts of meaning to life, and afterlife; that can be a really traumatic thing to deal with. I wouldn't actually push it on anyone.


wtf

Why would you feel sad about anybody being atheist? If you're religious for comfort, that's your own problem to deal with. I'm sure there are plenty of atheists out there, including myself, who are living perfectly fine without knowing the ~~meaning of life~ or knowing what the fuck comes after you die.

sade
14-02-2013, 06:53 PM
There's also a stigma against atheists that really... just isn't true. The only atheists who really discuss their "beliefs" are the ones who look down on the people who they believe are religious out of some sort of idiocy, etc.
The rest of them... just don't have anything to discuss. :p

I don't think that is true at all. People's favourite topic will always be one thing, themselves, and that includes discussing their own beliefs just because, and not just to shame other people. You mention your sadness for being an atheist- TOADA seems to come from the same place, an agnostic/atheist discussing their lack of faith and what it means to them. [whether or not Matt Bellamy is either of those things is not really relevant to make that point]

Just to get more back on topic, I haven't really seen the band members' personal religious beliefs or lack of as being a thing that has held Muse back in any way, so actually I'm not sure why it is discussed as a reason for hindering their popularity. I mean, I see why there might be the occasional person who finds a suggestion of atheism as objectionable and refuses to listen to the band, but there will always be the fundamentalists for every reason and cause and their boycott affects nothing on a larger scale.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 06:57 PM
I, for one, am always a little sad when I find out someone else is an atheist, because you just lack the comforts of meaning to life, and afterlife; that can be a really traumatic thing to deal with. I wouldn't actually push it on anyone.
If someone needs religion to give them purpose and meaning in life, aren't they the ones you should be feeling sorry for?

sade
14-02-2013, 07:09 PM
If someone needs religion to give them purpose and meaning in life, aren't they the ones you should be feeling sorry for?

I used to think like this before, but I do get why it's comforting to have religion. I'm somewhere between an atheist(most days) and agnostic-with-very-serious-doubts-about-the-existence-of-a-higher-being, and sometimes it's kind of depressing to know that (my) life doesn't really seem to have any sort of a point at all. Or how scary/odd it is to "know" there is nothing after death (despite the logical reasoning that it's not like I care then...being dead and all). So I can see why having the reassurance of someone up there looking after you and being reunited with your loved ones once you die is a good place to be.

Banksy.
14-02-2013, 07:28 PM
Is this really on topic at all? I think we've seen before how fantastic discussion about religion or the lack of it is on this board.

eyduh
14-02-2013, 07:43 PM
Is this really on topic at all?

nope

but that's what you get for making a thread about why hipsters hate muse

Tjet
14-02-2013, 08:05 PM
I used to think like this before, but I do get why it's comforting to have religion. I'm somewhere between an atheist(most days) and agnostic-with-very-serious-doubts-about-the-existence-of-a-higher-being, and sometimes it's kind of depressing to know that (my) life doesn't really seem to have any sort of a point at all. Or how scary/odd it is to "know" there is nothing after death (despite the logical reasoning that it's not like I care then...being dead and all). So I can see why having the reassurance of someone up there looking after you and being reunited with your loved ones once you die is a good place to be.Obviously I also get why religion is comforting to people. That's not my point.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 08:37 PM
If someone needs religion to give them purpose and meaning in life, aren't they the ones you should be feeling sorry for?

No, since it's been going on since the evolution of consciousness... I'd say it's just part of being human. Or self aware. Whichever.

Knowing that everything I do means nothing ultimately, and was just some sort of accidental occurance... that all the suffering and sadness everywhere is for absolutely no purpose... and that someday my life is going to go out like a bad lightbulb... that really puts a bit of a dark tone to the entire thing.
Somedays I hardly think about it, and some days I feel it closing in on me like staring down into a giant fucking black hole.

OT: we lack a real definition of what a hipster is, so the point sort of fizzled out really fast. :LOL:
But, I guess, debating why Muse is "uncool" is legit to the topic. Possibly.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 08:49 PM
No, since it's been going on since the evolution of consciousness... I'd say it's just part of being human. Or self aware. Whichever.

Knowing that everything I do means nothing ultimately, and was just some sort of accidental occurance... that all the suffering and sadness everywhere is for absolutely no purpose... and that someday my life is going to go out like a bad lightbulb... that really puts a bit of a dark tone to the entire thing.
Somedays I hardly think about it, and some days I feel it closing in on me like staring down into a giant fucking black hole.

OT: we lack a real definition of what a hipster is, so the point sort of fizzled out really fast. :LOL:
But, I guess, debating why Muse is "uncool" is legit to the topic. Possibly.
But what I'm saying is that despite this lack of religion, people still find purpose to carry on. They still find things that make them get up in the morning. Dreams, goals, family and friends, love etc. I find it a lot more sad that people don't have anything better to hold on to than the idea of a God and that something better will come in the life after this one. How is that not sad?

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:04 PM
But what I'm saying is that despite this lack of religion, people still find purpose to carry on. They still find things that make them get up in the morning. Dreams, goals, family and friends, love etc. I find it a lot more sad that people don't have anything better to hold on to than the idea of a God and that something better will come in the life after this one. How is that not sad?

It might be a bit "sad" in the limited frame of the example you gave.
Assuming someone's living "the American dream" or has things to look forward to, yes, sometimes you have to wonder why they would need more.
(Except for that nasty bit about death and oblivion...)

But how about people who are sick, suffering, dying? Alone? Going through the loss of someone special?
Born into poverty or wartorn environments?
It's more often those times when the pure meaninglessness of it all is apparent, and an issue.

And, regardless... even if your life is amazing, the though of oblivion... who WOULDN'T want something more?

Banksy.
14-02-2013, 09:05 PM
But what I'm saying is that despite this lack of religion, people still find purpose to carry on. They still find things that make them get up in the morning. Dreams, goals, family and friends, love etc. I find it a lot more sad that people don't have anything better to hold on to than the idea of a God and that something better will come in the life after this one. How is that not sad?

I think it's more than a little stupid to say that the only reason people might be religious is because they can't cope with the lack of a greater purpose.

eyduh
14-02-2013, 09:11 PM
And, regardless... even if your life is amazing, the though of oblivion... who WOULDN'T want something more?

you do realize some people are content with what they have right now? or is that a completely foreign concept to you?

I think it's more than a little stupid to say that the only reason people might be religious is because they can't cope with the lack of a greater purpose.

Yes but that isn't what we're talking about. The OP said they felt sad for the people who are atheists, because they don't have "something to look forward to" after death. Nobody is calling religious people stupid, but rather the notion that you have to be religious in order to be happy.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:17 PM
you do realize some people are content with what they have right now? or is that a completely foreign concept to you?


I've periodically been very happy with my life. Doesn't make me feel a lot better about death, though, just made me think about it less often.
Granted that's not the only reason people turn to religion, but it's an important (and historical) one.

My original question was this: if there was an alternative, why would anyone pick oblivion after death? I don't care how happy someone is now, it would still be more comfortable to believe life doesn't just end.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 09:18 PM
It might be a bit "sad" in the limited frame of the example you gave.
Assuming someone's living "the American dream" or has things to look forward to, yes, sometimes you have to wonder why they would need more.
(Except for that nasty bit about death and oblivion...)

But how about people who are sick, suffering, dying? Alone? Going through the loss of someone special?
Born into poverty or wartorn environments?
It's more often those times when the pure meaninglessness of it all is apparent, and an issue.

And, regardless... even if your life is amazing, the though of oblivion... who WOULDN'T want something more?
You were the one who limited it to begin with though? Obviously I'm not calling religion sad. Well...I thought it was obvious. You were the one who felt sad for atheists due to not having a meaning to their life or any belief in the afterlife.
I think it's more than a little stupid to say that the only reason people might be religious is because they can't cope with the lack of a greater purpose.
Yeah because that's totally what I said.

Banksy.
14-02-2013, 09:19 PM
Yes but that isn't what we're talking about. The OP said they felt sad for the people who are atheists, because they don't have "something to look forward to" after death. Nobody is calling religious people stupid, but rather the notion that you have to be religious in order to be happy.

Yeah, I feared that I had misinterpreted what Simon was saying after I posted. How ironic that I implied he was the one being stupid.

eyduh
14-02-2013, 09:23 PM
My original question was this: if there was an alternative, why would anyone pick oblivion after death? I don't care how happy someone is now, it would still be more comfortable to believe life doesn't just end.

but oblivion is just like the time before you were born. you don't exist, you don't know anything

i'd rather take that than a chance of burning in hell for all eternity

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:26 PM
You were the one who limited it to begin with though? Obviously I'm not calling religion sad. Well...I thought it was obvious. You were the one who felt sad for atheists due to not having a meaning to their life or any belief in the afterlife.


Not sure I limited it, although more strongly focusing on the death issue than anything, but that's just personal.

Yeah, I do... maybe not "sad"... but "empathetic"... maybe would be a better word.
I know how hard it's been for me to deal with sometimes, and I would never wish others to feel this way.
Not saying everyone WOULD feel this way, but empathising with those that would.

Facing a case, say, where someone has recently passed away... and watching that person's peers give them the "they're in a better place" line, while knowing the person doesn't believe that... That's more where my original comment in that direction came from.
People always seem to say atheism is the "easy" or "lazy" way, and that's just not it at all.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 09:27 PM
My original question was this: if there was an alternative, why would anyone pick oblivion after death? I don't care how happy someone is now, it would still be more comfortable to believe life doesn't just end.I don't get why I would limit my current life, and say no to pretty much most things that I enjoy, just so that I can have an afterlife though. Since most religions have incredibly hard rules on how you should live your life.

Well, unless you pick and choose what parts of the religion you want to believe is necessary though.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 09:30 PM
Not sure I limited it, although more strongly focusing on the death issue than anything, but that's just personal.

Yeah, I do... maybe not "sad"... but "empathetic"... maybe would be a better word.
I know how hard it's been for me to deal with sometimes, and I would never wish others to feel this way.
Not saying everyone WOULD feel this way, but empathising with those that would.

Facing a case, say, where someone has recently passed away... and watching that person's peers give them the "they're in a better place" line, while knowing the person doesn't believe that... That's more where my original comment in that direction came from.
People always seem to say atheism is the "easy" or "lazy" way, and that's just not it at all.
The problem though is that you literally said atheists "lack the comforts of meaning to life", which is a statement that is beyond ridiculous.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:31 PM
I don't get why I would limit my current life, and say no to pretty much most things that I enjoy, just so that I can have an afterlife though. Since most religions have incredibly hard rules on how you should live your life.

Well, unless you pick and choose what parts of the religion you want to believe is necessary though.

There has, historically, been a lot of religions that haven't had this sort of stipulation... but I think it's been a long, long time. Societies and goverments realized what a great control scheme this was very early on, I'm sure. :(
If we like Devil's Advocate, though... isn't saying someone doesn't want to be religious so they can choose to live their life anyway they want just the opposite side of saying someone wants to be religious to find comfort or meaning? :LOL:

but oblivion is just like the time before you were born. you don't exist, you don't know anything

i'd rather take that than a chance of burning in hell for all eternity

This is actually something I thought about for ages, years ago.
At the time, I was completely convinced I would rather be ANYwhere, even in Hell, than nowhere.
For some reason, I'm just completely terrified by the concept of oblivion.

The problem though is that you literally said atheists "lack the comforts of meaning to life", which is a statement that is beyond ridiculous.

There's a difference in finding meaning in your OWN life, and there being an overall meaning to life in general, though...

eyduh
14-02-2013, 09:34 PM
There's a difference in finding meaning in your OWN life, and there being an overall meaning to life in general, though...

Yes but that's the thing -- everybody has their own individual thoughts about life. Which is why you can't quite generalize the meaning of life. People die all the time, and are forgotten in a few decades. It's a scary concept given how egoistical we are about our lives, but it's the truth.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 09:38 PM
If we like Devil's Advocate, though... isn't saying someone doesn't want to be religious so they can choose to live their life anyway they want just the opposite side of saying someone wants to be religious to find comfort or meaning? :LOL:
It's probably because I'm really tired but I don't get what you're saying at all :LOL:


There's a difference in finding meaning in your OWN life, and there being an overall meaning to life in general, though...
That's not a difference you made clear though...

And in either case, it's a weird conclusion to made. To pity(okay, empathize with) people because they lack a book saying "this is the meaning of your life", implying that it's something people actually need. Obviously loads of people struggle to find meaning in their lives, but these people DO usually turn to religion, simply because it gives them answers. Which brings me back to the point that it's them you should feel sorry for.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:41 PM
Yes but that's the thing -- everybody has their own individual thoughts about life. Which is why you can't quite generalize the meaning of life. People die all the time, and are forgotten in a few decades. It's a scary concept given how egoistical we are about our lives, but it's the truth.

I often feel like self-awareness was an evolutionary mistake... :rolleyes:

For me, it was too hard to deal with people, especially children, who were born into short lives and constant suffering, with my beliefs being what they are.
I think there's a reason a lot of doctors tend to be religious, when you think it would likely be the opposite.
But, makes it seem like some people are born into lives with the potential for "meaning" and others aren't.
I can make the most of my life, but in general... I just want more than that.

fabripav
14-02-2013, 09:43 PM
I often feel like self-awareness was an evolutionary mistake... :rolleyes:

:erm:

Tjet
14-02-2013, 09:44 PM
Btw just to make it clear once again, I'm not saying religion, or even religious people are sad. I'm saying I feel sorry for people who need religion to find a meaning with their life. And that's not in spite or in any way making fun of it. I really find it sad that people have that little going for them in their lives.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:48 PM
It's probably because I'm really tired but I don't get what you're saying at all :LOL:

And in either case, it's a weird conclusion to made. To pity(okay, empathize with) people because they lack a book saying "this is the meaning of your life", implying that it's something people actually need. Obviously loads of people struggle to find meaning in their lives, but these people DO usually turn to religion, simply because it gives them answers. Which brings me back to the point that it's them you should feel sorry for.

I guess I don't see why I would feel sorry for someone who decided to do something that made them happier in life.
Especially when that thing doesn't affect me one iota (I believe was the original point of asking why people would care if Muse was religious... :LOL: )

I don't know a lot of other atheists, because not many of them walk around announcing it. And I know shitloads of religious people.
Of the atheists I know, one is a complete cock about how it makes him smarter, but the other is going through just an awful situation (which is how I found out in the first place) and, yeah, I truly empathise with their inability to find comfort or meaning to what happened.
Mainly because I've been through similar in my past.

SerpentSatellite
14-02-2013, 09:49 PM
:erm:

I'm not saying I don't enjoy it, but it feels like it's not done wonders for the planet, or the race. :LOL:

sade
14-02-2013, 09:55 PM
But what I'm saying is that despite this lack of religion, people still find purpose to carry on. They still find things that make them get up in the morning. Dreams, goals, family and friends, love etc. I find it a lot more sad that people don't have anything better to hold on to than the idea of a God and that something better will come in the life after this one. How is that not sad?


Obviously loads of people struggle to find meaning in their lives, but these people DO usually turn to religion, simply because it gives them answers. Which brings me back to the point that it's them you should feel sorry for.

IF religion truly is the only thing that keeps people carrying on, then yes, it's sad, but I would imagine for the majority of religious people it's the same things as for atheists- family, friends, romance, interests, etc. So it doesn't really have to be one extreme or another.

(Referring to your previous comment "If someone needs religion to give them purpose and meaning in life, aren't they the ones you should be feeling sorry for?" which I assume you then meant to mean "all the purpose and meaning in life")

Tjet
14-02-2013, 10:06 PM
I guess I don't see why I would feel sorry for someone who decided to do something that made them happier in life.
Especially when that thing doesn't affect me one iota (I believe was the original point of asking why people would care if Muse was religious... :LOL: )

I don't know a lot of other atheists, because not many of them walk around announcing it. And I know shitloads of religious people.
Of the atheists I know, one is a complete cock about how it makes him smarter, but the other is going through just an awful situation (which is how I found out in the first place) and, yeah, I truly empathise with their inability to find comfort or meaning to what happened.
Mainly because I've been through similar in my past.
But that's one single person. Wasn't it you who tried to tried to tell me that there was a difference? ;)

Also the problem is still the implication that without religion, people have nothing to fall back on. Just because there isn't a universal book of rules. Most of these people still have things that give them meaning. Obviously for some that's not the case, but it's not a reason to pity everyone who lacks religion.
IF religion truly is the only thing that keeps people carrying on, then yes, it's sad, but I would imagine for the majority of religious people it's the same things as for atheists- family, friends, romance, interests, etc. So it doesn't really have to be one extreme or another.

(Referring to your previous comment "If someone needs religion to give them purpose and meaning in life, aren't they the ones you should be feeling sorry for?" which I assume you then meant to mean "all the purpose and meaning in life")I know, my point was made to counter her extreme example of the opposite. I'm not saying religious people only have the religion to keep them from losing purpose.

Seaking
14-02-2013, 10:09 PM
This has fucking nothing to do with hipsters! This is fucking serious so get back on topic so help me God.

Furygirl
14-02-2013, 10:14 PM
Thank God/Darwin/cats/whoever for James. Indeed, there are plenty of religion threads already, and this isn't one of them.

Tjet
14-02-2013, 10:14 PM
I know, my point was made to counter her extreme example of the opposite. I'm not saying religious people only have the religion to keep them from losing purpose.I am too tired. Realised I worded this poorly, so here we go again.

She implied that people without religion has nothing that gives them meaning, so I countered with that if religion is the only thing that gives people meaning, their lives are pretty sad.

That doesn't mean I don't think religious people don't have other things that give them meaning, it's just a way to show her how faulty her argument is.

fabripav
14-02-2013, 10:15 PM
Wasn't Jesus hipster afterall?




Think about it.

Rhymes with Booze
15-02-2013, 11:52 AM
That's because they don't leave their houses.

Leaving the house is entirely too mainstream. :noey:

SerpentSatellite
15-02-2013, 01:41 PM
Leaving the house is entirely too mainstream. :noey:

I still have no idea what a hipster is, then. :LOL:

Here, people who don't leave the house are just fat old guys who live in mom's basement, play World of Warcraft, and eat Hot Pockets...
That doesn't sound very hipster. :noey:
Quite mainstream, probably...

I don't have any data on if that demographic is into Muse, though. They don't get out much, or articulate well.

Chagi
15-02-2013, 04:36 PM
Wasn't Jesus hipster afterall?




Think about it.

mind=blown

Kueller917
15-02-2013, 06:01 PM
Here, people who don't leave the house are just fat old guys who live in mom's basement, play World of Warcraft, and eat Hot Pockets...


But I don't have a basement

darksky
16-02-2013, 04:07 PM
This thread :love:

haze015
16-02-2013, 06:36 PM
I still have no idea what a hipster is, then. :LOL:

http://hipsterorhomeless.com

Dee3Dee
16-02-2013, 06:44 PM
"Muse - rock for clever people".

SerpentSatellite
16-02-2013, 11:45 PM
But I don't have a basement

So... you just sit upstairs and use your mom's computer? :LOL:

I know the southern states don't have basements... but seriously, where do you horde all your useless possessions at? :eek:
Or hide from tornados?

altbecky
17-02-2013, 12:25 AM
Mmmmmm. Hot pockets.

Furygirl
17-02-2013, 12:50 AM
I know the southern states don't have basements... but seriously, where do you horde all your useless possessions at? :eek:
Or hide from tornados?

I have a 1900 SF basement. :phu:

It has a computer... Maybe I'm a hipster. I liked Hot Pockets before they were invented.

SerpentSatellite
17-02-2013, 12:54 AM
I have a 1900 SF basement. :phu:

It has a computer... Maybe I'm a hipster. I liked Hot Pockets before they were invented.

You might need to hate Muse to be a hipster, though. I don't think we've decided yet.

Ironically, I live in the northern states, and don't have a basement.