Israel and Palestine

[andrzej]

So once again Muserist hints at a line of debate, and I make a thread for it...


What are peoples opinions on this? Personally I think the whole things just wrong, but I tend to have more sympathy for the Palestinians. It seems that everytime any progress towards peace is made, the Israelis bulldoze some houses. Perhaps the problem is that neither side wants peace. I dunno.

Michael Moore suggested in his book Stupid White Men that Palestinians should adopt a Ghandi style of non-violent protest. I suppose it would help stop American support of Israel, but it's not really feasible is it?

Anyway, the floor is open for debate!

[Dramatic Hammer]

Well.... as historically there is no such thing as a Palestine state, they should realy be happy with how much they have and give Jerusalem back to the Jews at least. It's never going to happen though!

[andrzej]

I would agree with you if Israel behaved with a degree of civality for one second. They have bullied the Palestinians for years and now they're scared because the Arabs have finally found a way to hurt them- suicide bombings.

Really, the whole thing is just an example of how craply we as a nation cobble togethor countries e.g Pakistan.

[Dramatic Hammer]

Well I think that giving Israel their country back was a step in the right direction but they also need to appreciate what they have. It doesn't help us that the media here is heavily biased one way or the other (usualy towards the palestinians).

[andrzej]

Yeah but kicking Palestinians out of they're homes was a step in the wrong direction. I'd just like to point out that I condemn both sides- killing is just wrong and it only gives your opponent the moral highground anyway.

As for giving the Israelis they're country back, should we do the same thing for Native Americans? The reason it happened was because the world was a bit guilty for letting the holocaust happening.

[TisWas]

Yeah but kicking Palestinians out of they're homes was a step in the wrong direction. I'd just like to point out that I condemn both sides- killing is just wrong and it only gives your opponent the moral highground anyway.

As for giving the Israelis they're country back, should we do the same thing for Native Americans? The reason it happened was because the world was a bit guilty for letting the holocaust happening.

Well said.

[Brundlefly]

Michael Moore suggested in his book Stupid White Men that Palestinians should adopt a Ghandi style of non-violent protest. I suppose it would help stop American support of Israel, but it's not really feasible is it?

In what way not feasible?

As for giving the Israelis they're country back, should we do the same thing for Native Americans? The reason it happened was because the world was a bit guilty for letting the holocaust happening.
Its not just guilt though. They wanted to give the jews a home, because right before the Holocaust, there was no country willing to take all the Jews who wanted to leave because they foresaw trouble.

[brainbored]

What are peoples opinions on this? Personally I think the whole things just wrong, but I tend to have more sympathy for the Palestinians. It seems that everytime any progress towards peace is made, the Israelis bulldoze some houses. Perhaps the problem is that neither side wants peace. I dunno.


I agree the Israelis aren't helping, but i think the blame shouldn't just be on the Israelis. Suicide bombing is used by the Israelis, as a means of justifying their actions. I fear that the situation is particularly hard to resolve, since one country is always retaliating to what the other one has done and it is an continous circle of violence upon one-another. The deep hatred that both groups have of one another means that even with a political resolvement, the social prejudices would still hinder their ability to intergrate or possibly even just to run parrallel without any trouble. It'll take years to heal.

A Palenstinian state would give them what they want and allow the existing division of Israelis and the Palestinians to exist in a more just way, but this still doesn't remove all the baggage of years of conflict.

[brainbored]

In what way not feasible?


Its not just guilt though. They wanted to give the jews a home, because right before the Holocaust, there was no country willing to take all the Jews who wanted to leave because they foresaw trouble.
I think they were suggesting that were they to do this they would still be attacked by the Israeli's. . .i'm presuming that is what they were entailing.

Admittedly i know less than i should about the full history of this kind of thing. I can't wait to study politics . . in fact i hope they cover this.

[andrzej]

I meant that the thought of all Palestinians simultanesouldy not blowing themselves up, and somehow not getting crushed by Israeli bulldozers is sadly slightly preposterous...

[incubism]

hmm..they never seem to quit, neither one of them..impossible to consider picking a side in this!

[Miss Shira]

Well... As a person who lives there (Israel that is)... I have an opinion about it... But it's not quite pro my country. It's Israel's fault. Most of it.

[andrzej]

Well... As a person who lives there (Israel that is)... I have an opinion about it... But it's not quite pro my country. It's Israel's fault. Most of it.

If only more people held your view of their own nation, on both sides of the border...

[Miss Shira]

If only more people held your view of their own nation, on both sides of the border...

Trust me, in Israel there are many. Most of them aren't in the legal voting age, and there aren't more than half to kick PM Sharon out. Too bad. It's just that people had given up all hope for peace, I mean, tens of years of wars kind of get the hope out of a person.

[andrzej]

Trust me, in Israel there are many. Most of them aren't in the legal voting age, and there aren't more than half to kick PM Sharon out. Too bad. It's just that people had given up all hope for peace, I mean, tens of years of wars kind of get the hope out of a person.

I cannot imagine. Respect to you though, I hope that coming generations will have the sense to end this idiocy (in my country aswell). Hang in there, there is always hope :)

[Miss Shira]

I cannot imagine. Respect to you though, I hope that coming generations will have the sense to end this idiocy (in my country aswell). Hang in there, there is always hope :)

I don't really have a reason to give up hope. I have 2 more years until I go to the army to see what war is. I never experienced personally any terror attack. I'm not afraid of anything. And I'm active in several peace and political organizations.

[amityrae]

You'd think a persecuted people such as the Jews would try not to persecute another group of people. You'd think they would have learnt from the thousands of years of suffering that they went through.
The state of Israel would not exist without handouts from the US Govt. They have no means of income, they dont produce anything, they subsist on US handouts. I think the US allocates $300 billion per year just to keep Israel going (I could be wrong).
What were the US, UK and France thinking when they decided to give the Jews land in the Middle East? Stupidity!
Besides, they only gave it to them because they felt guilty about not helping them before it was too late in WW2. As the Saudi King who ruled after WW2 said to Roosevelt, when asked what he thought about Jews being given land in the Middle East," Seems to me, they should be given land in Germany." Something along those lines, anyway.

[Dramatic Hammer]

You'd think a persecuted people such as the Jews would try not to persecute another group of people. You'd think they would have learnt from the thousands of years of suffering that they went through.
The state of Israel would not exist without handouts from the US Govt. They have no means of income, they dont produce anything, they subsist on US handouts. I think the US allocates $300 billion per year just to keep Israel going (I could be wrong).
What were the US, UK and France thinking when they decided to give the Jews land in the Middle East? Stupidity!
Besides, they only gave it to them because they felt guilty about not helping them before it was too late in WW2. As the Saudi King who ruled after WW2 said to Roosevelt, when asked what he thought about Jews being given land in the Middle East," Seems to me, they should be given land in Germany." Something along those lines, anyway.
They were given back the land that was taken from them before (don't ask me exactly when).
I found an interesting newsletter somewhere that is by a Jewish/Christian coalition type thing and it has basicaly the opposite viewpoint to the UK media (as well as less sensationalism and more compassion) but I shall dig it out and quote some as a useful insight into another viewpoint :cool: .

[Miss Shira]

You'd think a persecuted people such as the Jews would try not to persecute another group of people. You'd think they would have learnt from the thousands of years of suffering that they went through.
The state of Israel would not exist without handouts from the US Govt. They have no means of income, they dont produce anything, they subsist on US handouts. I think the US allocates $300 billion per year just to keep Israel going (I could be wrong).
What were the US, UK and France thinking when they decided to give the Jews land in the Middle East? Stupidity!
Besides, they only gave it to them because they felt guilty about not helping them before it was too late in WW2. As the Saudi King who ruled after WW2 said to Roosevelt, when asked what he thought about Jews being given land in the Middle East," Seems to me, they should be given land in Germany." Something along those lines, anyway.

You're wrong. Israel's military industry does well abroad and that what's bringing the money. And don't think that Israel's so rich, all of the money goes for security problems and the army instead to the weak.
The Jews indeed deserved a country after the holocaust. And I agree that it was stupid to give us land in the middle east. but that's what the religious Jews wanted. Now it's too late. The only solution is to get those bloody settlments out of the Palestinian territories, but they say it can cause a war between us Jews so it's complicated to do.

[TisWas]

I have 2 more years until I go to the army to see what war is. I never experienced personally any terror attack. I'm not afraid of anything.

You will be when you join the army, don't fool yourself.

[Miss Shira]

You will be when you join the army, don't fool yourself.

Not all the duties in the army are dangerous. It depends where the army will put me.

[TisWas]

Not all the duties in the army are dangerous. It depends where the army will put me.

True, but if you got put into a dangerous part, i'd doubt you'd come out of it still not fearing anything.

[craigacp]

TisWas has a point, you have no fear now cos currently you have nothing to fear, when you put on an isreali army uniform you instantly become a target for the mad bastards.

[TisWas]

TisWas has a point, you have no fear now cos currently you have nothing to fear, when you put on an isreali army uniform you instantly become a target for the mad bastards.

Well put on civilian clothes and sit in a cafe and your target for suicide bombers, but i get your point.

Don't the army have to clean up the mess after each bomb? If anyone does that and still has no fear then they must be a phsyco.

[craigacp]

Well put on civilian clothes and sit in a cafe and your target for suicide bombers, but i get your point.

Don't the army have to clean up the mess after each bomb? If anyone does that and still has no fear then they must be a phsyco.


Yeah i see what you mean. Ok you become more of a target.

[craigacp]

Well put on civilian clothes and sit in a cafe and your target for suicide bombers, but i get your point.

Don't the army have to clean up the mess after each bomb? If anyone does that and still has no fear then they must be a phsyco.


Edit: Double post.

[Miss Shira]

I live in a tiny kibbutz in Israel, no one will attack it. I'm not going to be on a dangerous duty in the army, the IDF's not that stupid to put the security of the state in my hands. Sure, when I go on buses every dark figure with a closed thick coat raises that thought that perhaps it's a suicide bomber, but I don't let that get too much into me, in order not to go crazy.

Of course when I see reports that this soldier was killed today, or there was a suicide bombing in that city, it's sad, and it gets me thinking that perhaps it's not all Israel's fault, because those people can kill a half year old baby. But then again, the IDF does that too. By accident yeah, but it does kill too. I understand the people who kill Israelis. I don't justify killing. I just understand them.

[Dramatic Hammer]

I was reading an article by a Muslim council that was explaining how suicide bombers can justify their attacks on civilians - it said that all adult Israelis are in the military on a rotating basis, so in theory are all valid targets. Is that true? (the everyone being in the army bit).

[Miss Shira]

I was reading an article by a Muslim council that was explaining how suicide bombers can justify their attacks on civilians - it said that all adult Israelis are in the military on a rotating basis, so in theory are all valid targets. Is that true? (the everyone being in the army bit).

Yes, every person in Israel over 18, male or female, has to do army service (2 years for girls, 3 years for boys), and the men do rotation service every few months. Except if he has a serious health problem or mental problem. And if you don't go to the army you go to jail.

[Dramatic Hammer]

Ahh so just the men are permanently in the army? That Muslim council was lying then and presumably the same propaganda is fed to the arabs :eek: . Then they have no excuse/reason from the Koran to kill civilians. Hmm.

[andrzej]

double post- sorry

[andrzej]

Then they have no excuse/reason from the Koran to kill civilians. Hmm.

It's all down to interpretation isn't it. The Islamic teachings permit the killing of men in some circumstances, one such circumstance being the invasion of ones land, which is what is percieved to have happened by most Arabs. (Even then, a Jihad must be declared by a figure of religious authority.) However, the killing of women and children is prohibited under any circumstance so how anyone can claim religious justification for this murderous behaviour is beyond me...it's really sad :(

I think part of the problem is that any crackpot can claim to be a representative of Islam in that part of the world...

[Dramatic Hammer]

It's all down to interpretation isn't it. The Islamic teachings permit the killing of men in some circumstances, one such circumstance being the invasion of ones land, which is what is percieved to have happened by most Arabs. (Even then, a Jihad must be declared by a figure of religious authority.) However, the killing of women and children is prohibited under any circumstance so how anyone can claim religious justification for this murderous behaviour is beyond me...it's really sad :(

I think part of the problem is that any crackpot can claim to be a representative of Islam in that part of the world...
From what I gathered from this interview(I think): the Koran actualy encourages/requires action against the enemy in a war. The 'invasion' means that a 'war' is started and action can be taken against the 'enemy'. The representitive was saying that as all adult Israelis are on rotation in the army, they are all valid targets - men and women. This was on the BBC :eek: :eek: !
I think that is how the suicide bombers are justifying themselves/each other.
It seems a little odd to be fighting over land that they stole in the first place though :confused: .

[tzlil]

i have to agree with miss shira
im from israel to...
but common people this is a muse massage board!
this topic is kinda boring dont u think...?

[Miss Shira]

i have to agree with miss shira
im from israel to...
but common people this is a muse massage board!
this topic is kinda boring dont u think...?

This is a none-muse category...And I think it's a shame that people from Israel like you don't care and find this boring. Our country is going down.

[tzlil]

yeah this country's going down and its sad!
but all that talking about this situation only making me sader...
so i'd rather not dealing with that
but u see...u made me do that right now :)

[TisWas]

I live in a tiny kibbutz in Israel, no one will attack it. I'm not going to be on a dangerous duty in the army, the IDF's not that stupid to put the security of the state in my hands. Sure, when I go on buses every dark figure with a closed thick coat raises that thought that perhaps it's a suicide bomber, but I don't let that get too much into me, in order not to go crazy.


Wait a mo, you said you don't have any fear. If thats true, why would you go crazy? Plus if you have no fear would it not be better to put you in the more dangerous parts, even though you are female. Because after all you have no fear and so you will be more productive than someone who is shit scared.

[TisWas]

yeah this country's going down and its sad!
but all that talking about this situation only making me sader...
so i'd rather not dealing with that
but u see...u made me do that right now :)

Why don't you use your head, not read the topic, fuck off and let those who want to talk about it, talk about it, dickhead.

[Miss Shira]

Wait a mo, you said you don't have any fear. If thats true, why would you go crazy? Plus if you have no fear would it not be better to put you in the more dangerous parts, even though you are female. Because after all you have no fear and so you will be more productive than someone who is shit scared.

Why would I go crazy? I'll let the media get the fear to me even thoguh I have no reason to be afraid. And the IDF doesn't work like that. It takes people that fit to fight in the dangerous parts. People who are afraid like hell won't be stated there. Females are stated there too, but female who are fit enough to fight.

[Dramatic Hammer]

Don't they train you up and make you fit?
Did you know that smaller paratroopers carry more than bigger soldiers because of the weight a parachute can carry!

[TisWas]

Why would I go crazy? I'll let the media get the fear to me even thoguh I have no reason to be afraid. And the IDF doesn't work like that. It takes people that fit to fight in the dangerous parts. People who are afraid like hell won't be stated there. Females are stated there too, but female who are fit enough to fight.

But if you have no reason to be afraid then the media can't get to you. And like Muserist says, you being weakling won't last long. Basicaly love, you're talking out of your arse.

[brainbored]

It seems a little odd to be fighting over land that they stole in the first place though :confused: .
That could apply to either side. The palestinians have been in the area for longer in that area of the middle east. But the Israelis do have some claim to the land. Though i think the act of 'taking it back' in 1967, was kinda silly.

[nirvana-chaka]

Apols if someone has already mentioned this but did anyone see that footage where an elderly palestinian woman was crossing the road and all of a sudden an israeli sniper trooper man gunned her down?! T'was on the BBC i think? :ohmy:

[TisWas]

Npt heard anything about that, just heard about the re-resufferling of the Palestine leaders.

[nirvana-chaka]

Npt heard anything about that, just heard about the re-resufferling of the Palestine leaders.


I'm certain! it was on the bbc 6 'o' clock news! Has anyone else seen it???? :confused:

[TisWas]

I'm certain! it was on the bbc 6 'o' clock news! Has anyone else seen it???? :confused:

You mean like it was on the news over the weekend? Or happened a while ago? I didn't watch the news over the weekend, but i would of heard it on the radio news.

[nirvana-chaka]

You mean like it was on the news over the weekend? Or happened a while ago? I didn't watch the news over the weekend, but i would of heard it on the radio news.


T'was a while ago, put i saw it when i was on my way out and my housemate was slobbing on the sofa watching the news suprisingly! :ohmy:

[absolution2k4]

Personally, I'm on the Palestinians side. Placing the Jews in the middle east with all the arabs was a ridiculous thing to do. I say they should declare peace and the Israelis should stop building that ridiculous wall (that is jutting way into palestinian territory and tearing villages in two.

American leaders aren't doing their country any favours by backing the Israelis as well. That fact that the government is backing a faction that is at war with a Muslim faction won't be looked kindly upon in the rest of the Muslim world. I think it's ridiculous that the Palestinians are percieved as terrorists just because of the means with which they are attacking the Israelis with. It's not their fault they have to use suicide bombers. They have no other option when Israelis are using their fancy apache helicopters and abrams tanks that the American government are providing them with.

Let me make clear that I am not trying to have a go at Americans on this board. It's the leadership of your country that is poor. (I hope I've phrased that correctly).

The perception that all Muslims are terrorists is ridiculous. The Palestinians, though using unorthadox methods to fight their war, are not terrorists.

If you ask me, it's the other side doing the terrorism.

[andrzej]

I agree with you up to a point, but playing devils advocate, where would you have put the Jews. The Catholic world hates them too (stupidly). What is needed now is for Israel to just stop killing for one second and allow talks to go ahead, sadly with a fascist like Sharron in power that isn't going happen :( :( :(

[nirvana-chaka]

I am just anti ZIONIST!!!!!
It is beyond comprehension how they can get away with this sort of stuff! I guess America ("zionist state") has its thumb in one of many pies!

[†††Guygy†††™]

O.k...
I just read the first message....

we all in Israel know what you see on T.V. and....you see all the bullshit that is 99% not true....
you never saw all the suicide boom kill's the Palestinians have committed in Israel….they killed over 2000 incessant people in the last 2 years…people who believed in peace…
so…I don't know if you would believe…or you would like to believe it….we are not the bad guy's….the Palestinians are those how kill us for nothing !! just because they believe they need to !!We stop 50 suicide boomers a day!!!they send those 50 ass'es!!!

Israel is a peaceful place….we want only the best for every one!!!

[Nincy Face]

O.k...
I just read the first message....

we all in Israel know what you see on T.V. and....you see all the bullshit that is 99% not true....
you never saw all the suicide boom kill's the Palestinians have committed in Israel….they killed over 2000 incessant people in the last 2 years…people who believed in peace…
so…I don't know if you would believe…or you would like to believe it….we are not the bad guy's….the Palestinians are those how kill us for nothing !! just because they believe they need to !!We stop 50 suicide boomers a day!!!they send those 50 ass'es!!!

Israel is a peaceful place….we want only the best for every one!!!
It took me a while to understand what you were saying.

Thing is though, someone from Palestina surely says the same as you do but then from his perspective. I think it's time for both parties to assume you're both doing the wrong thing at the moment and should both stop seeing eachother as enemies.

[Keys]

It took me a while to understand what you were saying.

Thing is though, someone from Palestina surely says the same as you do but then from his perspective. I think it's time for both parties to assume you're both doing the wrong thing at the moment and should both stop seeing eachother as enemies.

hehe such the optimist!

plus ive read that only about 1084 israelis have died due to palestinians, whereas almost 3863 palestinians have died due to the israelies, 7,633 israelis injured and 29,731 Palestinians injured since 29th sept 2000.

hmm.

here

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

some of their sources could be bias, tho its the red cross... but the stats on child murders is from an independant organisation.. so im believing what im reading.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

hehe such the optimist!

plus ive read that only about 1084 israelis have died due to palestinians, whereas almost 3863 palestinians have died due to the israelies, 7,633 israelis injured and 29,731 Palestinians injured since 29th sept 2000.

hmm.
Heh, 'about' 1084.

Anyway, you have to bear in mind that only a smallish percentage of the Palestinian casualties were totally innocent as oppossed to the Israeli casualties.

[Boomhauer]

I think it's time for both parties to assume you're both doing the wrong thing at the moment and should both stop seeing eachother as enemies.The Palestinians will never see each other as friends and they also will never get along...and Palestinians will never use non-violent protests. Also there will never be peace for Israel...although i do want it, it's not going to happen. The violence will go on for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngg gggggggggggggggggggg tttttttttttttttttttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Oh and Israel wants peace. Palestine just wants to wipe out the Jews, just like Iran's President.

[Keys]

O.k...
I just read the first message....

we all in Israel know what you see on T.V. and....you see all the bullshit that is 99% not true....
you never saw all the suicide boom kill's the Palestinians have committed in Israel….they killed over 2000 incessant people in the last 2 years…people who believed in peace…
so…I don't know if you would believe…or you would like to believe it….we are not the bad guy's….the Palestinians are those how kill us for nothing !! just because they believe they need to !!We stop 50 suicide boomers a day!!!they send those 50 ass'es!!!

Israel is a peaceful place….we want only the best for every one!!!


yeah...

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

It took me a while to understand what you were saying.

Thing is though, someone from Palestina surely says the same as you do but then from his perspective. I think it's time for both parties to assume you're both doing the wrong thing at the moment and should both stop seeing eachother as enemies.
:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Never gonna happen.

[Keys]

Heh, 'about' 1084.

Anyway, you have to bear in mind that only a smallish percentage of the Palestinian casualties were totally innocent as oppossed to the Israeli casualties.

lol i found the website after i posted and changed the figures. :LOL:

and i cant say for sure what the innocent: not ratio is, but the amount of innocent people israelis kill ever time they decide to send it their armies into palestine and demolish settlements has got to outweigh the amount of suicide bombers. Plus, the amount of people displaced due to the demolishing of settlements will probably die as well from the cold/ lack of food/ getting attacked by wolves etc.

[Keys]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/footageerased-wmv.html

:\

[Nincy Face]

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

Never gonna happen.
Ofcourse it ain't gonna happen, but keep seeing eachother as the bad guys surely isn't gonna help.

[Keys]

Ofcourse it ain't gonna happen, but keep seeing eachother as the bad guys surely isn't gonna help.
i think israel should just give the lands they stole back to the palestinians :yesey: then everyones happy. :D

[Nincy Face]

i think israel should just give the lands they stole back to the palestinians :yesey: then everyones happy. :D
:LOL: How's that gonna work?

"Oh, here's your land back, we spit on it and don't want it anymore. We'll just go..that way *points to Egypt*"

[Keys]

:LOL: How's that gonna work?

"Oh, here's your land back, we spit on it and don't want it anymore. We'll just go..that way *points to Egypt*"
:LOL: well it wont ever happen... maybes they should go to another country and claim it as thier own

[Black Mamba]

The Palestinians will never see each other as friends and they also will never get along...and Palestinians will never use non-violent protests. Also there will never be peace for Israel...although i do want it, it's not going to happen. The violence will go on for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngg gggggggggggggggggggg tttttttttttttttttttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Oh and Israel wants peace. Palestine just wants to wipe out the Jews, just like Iran's President.
We can start from here.

[Keys]

The Palestinians will never see each other as friends and they also will never get along...and Palestinians will never use non-violent protests. Also there will never be peace for Israel...although i do want it, it's not going to happen. The violence will go on for a loooooooooooooooooooooooooonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnngg gggggggggggggggggggg tttttttttttttttttttiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiiiiimmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmeeeeeeeeeeeeee. Oh and Israel wants peace. Palestine just wants to wipe out the Jews, just like Iran's President.

i just read that.. They should wipe stupid people out too. *looks at you*

[Black Mamba]

:LOL: well it wont ever happen... maybes they should go to another country and claim it as thier own
They were given Ethiopia*sniggers*

[Black Mamba]

i just read that.. They should wipe stupid people out too. *looks at you*
We will leave that to Iran to do it.

[El Zilcho]

We will leave that to Iran to do it.

You do realise you're making yourself seem like a big warmonger? :rolleyes:

[Black Mamba]

You do realise you're making yourself seem like a big warmonger? :rolleyes:
Nope,but tha's what the americans are trying to persude its ppl of.;)

[El Zilcho]

Nope,but tha's what the americans are trying to persude its ppl of.;)

I'm sure most Americans don't even know you ;)

[Black Mamba]

I'm sure most Americans don't even know you ;)
:LOL:


Are you sure you're German?:stunned:

[SilentGod]

I think I might have posted this before, but these comics sum up my view on the matter:

http://www.bendib.com/palestine/El-Quds-Whose.jpg






http://www.bendib.com/palestine/Who-belongs-here.jpg

[craigacp]

The Palestinians will never see each other as friends and they also will never get along...and Palestinians will never use non-violent protests. Also there will never be peace for Israel...although i do want it, it's not going to happen. The violence will go on for a long time. Oh and Israel wants peace. Palestine just wants to wipe out the Jews, just like Iran's President.


You sir, are a grade 1 idiot. If you ask the Palestinian people I'm fairly sure they just want to live without the threat of being blown up, shot or arrested.

[Keys]

You sir, are a grade 1 idiot. If you ask the Palestinian people I'm fairly sure they just want to live without the threat of being blown up, shot or arrested.
:LOL: i like how israelis all think that they are the victims in this. Id like to see their reaction if some settlers went to israel, drove them out and thn called them the trouble makers for wanting it back. maybes only then theyll realise how ignorant and wrong they are.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

:LOL: i like how israelis all think that they are the victims in this. Id like to see their reaction if some settlers went to israel, drove them out and thn called them the trouble makers for wanting it back. maybes only then theyll realise how ignorant and wrong they are.
What the fuck?

A lot of my family live in Israel, do you think they just went to some Arab's house and told them to fuck off?
After the second World War, when the state of Israel was founded by the UN, the population was roughly 32% Jewish and 68% Arab.


Currently it can be estimated that, there are, 5,300,000 Jews and 1,300,000 Arabs in the state of Israel (see Demographics of Israel) as well as 3,700,000 Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza Strip (see Palestinian people) meaning that in terms of the area of Palestine, approximately 51% are Jews and 49% are Arabs.
Not quite as brutally horrific as some people make out, is it?

The Palestinian's are victims but the Israeli's are the victims's too, what the fuck did they do to deserve being murdered?

It's all one big mess caused by governments and religion.

[Boomhauer]

You sir, are a grade 1 idiot. If you ask the Palestinian people I'm fairly sure they just want to live without the threat of being blown up, shot or arrested.Ok yeah so you're saying Israel shouldn't fight back at all and let the Palestinians take their land back? I mean you do understand that Hamas won't stop sending suicide bombers even if they get their land back, right? Iran's president said Israel should be "wiped off the map", do you think Iran's President is kidding about that? Think he's being sarcastic? I understand Palestinians don't want to get blown up, but neither do the Israelians. They don't want to walk to a bus stop one minute, then the next they get blown up by somebody. No one should live like that but it will never stop for the Jews. Call me an idiot and all but I probably understand more than you do. And I'm not a Jew.

It's all one big mess caused by governments and religion.Exactly, I would go further on with that but people will just say I'm being ignorant, when I'm not actually not, and then will just grow from that and become one big huge ass waste of time.

[Aisling]

After the second World War, when the state of Israel was founded by the UN, the population was roughly 32% Jewish and 68% Arab.

May I say the UN was (as it currently is) under strong American influence. But nevermind that. Around that time (1946) England was in control of the area, and promised the Arabs an Arab State, while it did the same to the Zionists for a Jewish State.

Then this happened:

In 1947 Britain announced its intention to withdraw from Palestine, and on 29 November the United Nations General Assembly voted to partition Palestine into an Arab state and a Jewish state (with Jerusalem becoming an international enclave). Civil conflict between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine erupted immediately. On 14 May 1948 the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine made a declaration of independence, and the state of Israel was established.

[Black Mamba]

What the fuck?

A lot of my family live in Israel, do you think they just went to some Arab's house and told them to fuck off?
After the second World War, when the state of Israel was founded by the UN, the population was roughly 32% Jewish and 68% Arab.


Not quite as brutally horrific as some people make out, is it?

The Palestinian's are victims but the Israeli's are the victims's too, what the fuck did they do to deserve being murdered?

It's all one big mess caused by governments and religion.
Lolz.

So if we follow your argumentation,everybody should go back home?

For thousands of years,Arabs were living in Palestine and you just come like that and take it?


Jesus.

[Black Mamba]

I think I might have posted this before, but these comics sum up my view on the matter:

http://www.bendib.com/palestine/El-Quds-Whose.jpg






http://www.bendib.com/palestine/Who-belongs-here.jpg
You're Anti-semitic.

[Keys]

What the fuck?

A lot of my family live in Israel, do you think they just went to some Arab's house and told them to fuck off?
After the second World War, when the state of Israel was founded by the UN, the population was roughly 32% Jewish and 68% Arab.


yeah the un gave the israelis 55% of the country in 1947, i know that, dont try to patronise me with HUGE TEXT . But after that (even tho they really shouldnt have been given the country), in 1948 they started a war to take over the rest. That was my point.

[Black Mamba]

yeah the un gave the israelis 55% of the country in 1947, i know that, dont try to patronise me with HUGE TEXT . But after that (even tho they really shouldnt have been given the country), in 1948 they started a war to take over the rest. That was my point.
Huge,innit.

[ʘ]

yeah the un gave the israelis 55% of the country in 1947, i know that, dont try to patronise me with HUGE TEXT . But after that (even tho they really shouldnt have been given the country), in 1948 they started a war to take over the rest. That was my point.

I hope I'm not completely mistaken by assuming that by "they", you mean the Israelis... Anyway, you're so right, the Israelis should have never started the war by being invaded by 5 different armies.

Hope that didn't sound patronising... :$

The obligatory Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_War_of_Independence)

[Keys]

I hope I'm not completely mistaken by assuming that by "they", you mean the Israelis... Anyway, you're so right, the Israelis should have never started the war by being invaded by 5 different armies.

Hope that didn't sound patronising... :$

The obligatory Wikipedia link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_War_of_Independence)
so ok, the were invaded... invaded meaning people attacking their provinces. Right... so how is it that they ended up with more land than before the war? Obviously theyre totally innocent in this and didnt intened to end up with 78% of palestine...

[ʘ]

so ok, the were invaded... invaded meaning people attacking their provinces. Right... so how is it that they ended up with more land than before the war? Obviously theyre totally innocent in this and didnt intened to end up with 78% of palestine...

Shit happens, you know... The invading Arab armies were a bunch n00bheads without any real motivation to go to war (I'm talking about the common soldiers). It wasn't really their war. They weren't helping their Palestinians "brothers", they were just fighting for their corrupted dictators and generals who just wanted to gain some more territories and wipe down the Jews. + The armies weren't coordinated. That's basically why they lost.

As to why Israel gained territories - it's simply because just fending off attacks isn't enough to ensure you won't be attacked again. They conquered a lot of that extra territory for strategic leverage. You also have to remember that even before the war broke out officially, Palestinians were attacking Israelis on a regular basis, using vantage points or by controlling certain roads. Those places had to be held by the Israelis in order to ensure the safe lives of the people in the "designated" Israeli state. And one way of holding a territory is by settling it. Surely you can see why Israel wasn't sympathetic toward the inhabitants of those places: Those people wanted to kill all Jews and wouldn't agree to the UN compromise (it's a compromise because both sides have an historic affiliation to the land and as a result, have some right of living in it), it was their fault that their land got taken over - they shouldn't have started the hostility to begin with.

Now, because a lot of those strategic considerations aren't relevant nowadays, I do think that most of the occupied territories should be returned. That's what the government is slowly coming to accept and that's what most of the Israeli public wants.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Yes. What hullabaloo said.

Israel gave alot of the land back fairly quickly after the 1967 war, this is what Israel used to look like for a brief period.

http://iml.jou.ufl.edu/projects/Fall05/fraiman/WEBSITE/1967large.jpg

[Keys]

Shit happens, you know... The invading Arab armies were a bunch n00bheads without any real motivation to go to war (I'm talking about the common soldiers). It wasn't really their war. They weren't helping their Palestinians "brothers", they were just fighting for their corrupted dictators and generals who just wanted to gain some more territories and wipe down the Jews. + The armies weren't coordinated. That's basically why they lost.

As to why Israel gained territories - it's simply because just fending off attacks isn't enough to ensure you won't be attacked again. They conquered a lot of that extra territory for strategic leverage. You also have to remember that even before the war broke out officially, Palestinians were attacking Israelis on a regular basis, using vantage points or by controlling certain roads. Those places had to be held by the Israelis in order to ensure the safe lives of the people in the "designated" Israeli state. And one way of holding a territory is by settling it. Surely you can see why Israel wasn't sympathetic toward the inhabitants of those places: Those people wanted to kill all Jews and wouldn't agree to the UN compromise (it's a compromise because both sides have an historic affiliation to the land and as a result, have some right of living in it), it was their fault that their land got taken over - they shouldn't have started the hostility to begin with.

Now, because a lot of those strategic considerations aren't relevant nowadays, I do think that most of the occupied territories should be returned. That's what the government is slowly coming to accept and that's what most of the Israeli public wants.

Yeha but i can see why the palestinians would be attacking. If settlers decided to come to the UK and claim land for their own.. getting the UN to give them over half of their country to people who dont belong there... wouldnt that justify anger? Wouldnt that justify you wanting to fight back for whats yours. This is quoted from ghadi and i totally agree

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs..."

yes i can see why israel wasn't sympathetic towards those places, any one would, but then again surely yuo can see why palestine is acting the way they are. People cant just come into a country and expect no retaliation. I believe the israelis caused this and although yes Israel is slowly giving back the lands, it was never theirs to start with.

[Jan]

What the fuck?

A lot of my family live in Israel, do you think they just went to some Arab's house and told them to fuck off?



Right, your family might not have specifically kicked the Arabs off their land, but nevertheless 711,000 Arabs have been displaced into neighboring countries where they live in massive refugee camps. They may be allowed to go back now, but originally they were not permitted to live in Israel as they were seen [perhaps rightly so] as dangers to the Jewish population. Even where they are now, they are treated as second class citizens and live in immense poverty.

The Palestinian's are victims but the Israeli's are the victims's too, what the fuck did they do to deserve being murdered?

Tell me you wouldn't be angry too if your ancestors had been kicked off their land. They're bred generation after generation to hate these "oppressors". Aren't you sympathetic to brainwashing?



Anyway the West's attitude towards the Middle East is disgraceful. In 1916 the British raised Arab nationalism in Palestine, even promising that they would never support the creation of a Zionist state, however 1 year later the Balfour Declaration was made. Then later with the rise of Hitler and the start of the Holocaust, the English afraid of pissing off the Arabs too much, wouldn't let Jews escape into Palestine. Of course when the atrocities of the Holocaust came out, they had to support a Zionist state to make themselves feel better. We played with their emotions too much and now they have to pay for it.

[craigacp]

Ok yeah so you're saying Israel shouldn't fight back at all and let the Palestinians take their land back? I mean you do understand that Hamas won't stop sending suicide bombers even if they get their land back, right? Iran's president said Israel should be "wiped off the map", do you think Iran's President is kidding about that? Think he's being sarcastic? I understand Palestinians don't want to get blown up, but neither do the Israelians. They don't want to walk to a bus stop one minute, then the next they get blown up by somebody. No one should live like that but it will never stop for the Jews. Call me an idiot and all but I probably understand more than you do. And I'm not a Jew.

Exactly, I would go further on with that but people will just say I'm being ignorant, when I'm not actually not, and then will just grow from that and become one big huge ass waste of time.

Erm, pre 1967 borders seem like a good idea though, as then there would be a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, which would drain out most of the popular support for the bombings by the Palestinians.

I made no claims about the Iranian president, he is clearly a fucking nutter and shouldn't be in charge of a country, but as there is nothing that can be done about that the international community has to deal with him.

[Keys]

Erm, pre 1967 borders seem like a good idea though, as then there would be a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, which would drain out most of the popular support for the bombings by the Palestinians.

I made no claims about the Iranian president, he is clearly a fucking nutter and shouldn't be in charge of a country, but as there is nothing that can be done about that the international community has to deal with him.

based on?

[popo]

ALL the current problems in the world , and I mean AAALLLL the problems are because of those fucking animals in so called Israel (PALASTINE!!!!).It is just a stragedic and economic collony of the americans!!!So if the zionists just fucked of to america (who by the way also didn't want to take them during WW 2) all this shit would have been over!

[Jan]

ALL the current problems in the world , and I mean AAALLLL the problems are because of those fucking animals in so called Israel (PALASTINE!!!!).It is just a stragedic and economic collony of the americans!!!So if the zionists just fucked of to america (who by the way also didn't want to take them during WW 2) all this shit would have been over!

Are you being serious? If so, please be quiet.

[Keys]

ALL the current problems in the world , and I mean AAALLLL the problems are because of those fucking animals in so called Israel (PALASTINE!!!!).It is just a stragedic and economic collony of the americans!!!So if the zionists just fucked of to america (who by the way also didn't want to take them during WW 2) all this shit would have been over!
but then americans wont have their stronghold in the ME

[craigacp]

based on?


My general opinion of him. Also I dislike hardline theists.

[Keys]

My general opinion of him. Also I dislike hardline theists.
oh right cos for a second i thought it was going to be because of "oh noes hes making nuclear power.. hes obviously going to make nukes and kill everyone cos hes from one of those countries" but its not so its ok.

[Black Mamba]

Erm, pre 1967 borders seem like a good idea though, as then there would be a Palestinian state and an Israeli state, which would drain out most of the popular support for the bombings by the Palestinians.

I made no claims about the Iranian president, he is clearly a fucking nutter and shouldn't be in charge of a country, but as there is nothing that can be done about that the international community has to deal with him.
That would apply to Bush and Blair.


Iran has the same as any other country to own a nuclear weapon/off topic.

[Black Mamba]

but then americans wont have their stronghold in the ME
+1.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Iran has the same as any other country to own a nuclear weapon/off topic.
Yes. None.

[Black Mamba]

Yes. None.
:stunned:

[Black Mamba]

They've already signed the NPT, so if they try to develop one they're breaking international law (not that that seems to matter about the Iraq war and the subsequent war crimes, but the Un doesnt have the power to stand up to the American led coalition.) Even though India and Pakistan developed nuclear weapons when they were still fighting over the disputed Cashmere region and South Africa and Israel are close to completing their nuclear weapons programes.
All involved states are developping those weapons.

[Black Mamba]

Aye, and the Americans have further developed their nuclear missiles, which is in breach of the treaty and (allegedly) so have the British (If you want to know where they are then look no further than Faslane and RNAD Couport in Scotland, it's an open secret they're there, it's just not been made official for obvious reasons.)
:(

[Jan]

Ohoh, and isn't Israel developing nuclear stuff and they won't let the UN look?

Eh maybe. I'm vague.

[Black Mamba]

Israel has around 100 nuclear weapons (according to conservative estimates by the US, others say the figure is more like 400) they also imprisoned Mordechi Vanunu (sp?) for leaking info on their nuclear weapons programe to the Times, and I think to myself what a wonderful world.
Yeah,that's right.
Yesterday evening,in Aljazeera,they discussed how the Arabs are fearing Iran's nuclear power while they have ingore the threat that Israel represents.:rolleyes:

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Yeah,that's right.
Yesterday evening,in Aljazeera,they discussed how the Arabs are fearing Iran's nuclear power while they have ingore the threat that Israel represents.:rolleyes:
Because Al-Jazeera is so biased towards Israel?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4912198.stm

If these guy gets nukes, the world will be a scarier place (for me anyway). The guy's a nutcase.

[Chris]

Aye, and the Americans have further developed their nuclear missiles, which is in breach of the treaty and (allegedly) so have the British (If you want to know where they are then look no further than Faslane and RNAD Couport in Scotland, it's an open secret they're there, it's just not been made official for obvious reasons.)
They must be in more than 2 places?

But then, i'm sure some are more hidden than others.

[craigacp]

Israel has around 100 nuclear weapons (according to conservative estimates by the US, others say the figure is more like 400) they also imprisoned Mordechi Vanunu (sp?) for leaking info on their nuclear weapons programe to the Times, and I think to myself what a wonderful world.


They kidnapped Vanunu via some entrapment. Its a fair bit of effort considering he was living in London at the time. Bastards.

[craigacp]

That would apply to Bush and Blair.


Iran has the same as any other country to own a nuclear weapon/off topic.


A) I never said it wouldn't, and B) I didn't vote for either of them. Can't really do much more.

[Black Mamba]

Because Al-Jazeera is so biased towards Israel?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4912198.stm

If these guy gets nukes, the world will be a scarier place (for me anyway). The guy's a nutcase.
Don't talk about which channel is biaised.

You have all the channels on your side,nuff said.

[Black Mamba]

A) I never said it wouldn't, and B) I didn't vote for either of them. Can't really do much more.
Point taken.

[Mona]

O.k...
I just read the first message....

we all in Israel know what you see on T.V. and....you see all the bullshit that is 99% not true....
you never saw all the suicide boom kill's the Palestinians have committed in Israel….they killed over 2000 incessant people in the last 2 years…people who believed in peace…
so…I don't know if you would believe…or you would like to believe it….we are not the bad guy's….the Palestinians are those how kill us for nothing !! just because they believe they need to !!We stop 50 suicide boomers a day!!!they send those 50 ass'es!!!

Israel is a peaceful place….we want only the best for every one!!!

Would you like to know what we see on TV? We see how media is quietly making us believe that the Palestinians are brutal and stupid. We see how it seems as though you are the innocent ones.
Suicide bombers are just as bad as killing innocent Palestinians who just demonstrate against the war.

I'm not feeling bad for anyone. Do you think it is Palestina itself who sent those bombers? They're young men, believing they're doing somethign good because someone from any terrorist organisation has told them they are. And since when have terrorists been smart?

The Israeliis haven't been angels either. How many innocent people haven't the military killed? At least the suicide bombers committed suicide.
Not better, I know, but the others are still alive.

The rest of the world is making a mistake believing negotiations with the Hamas party are impossible, since from what I've read and found out, they're trying to make Palestina stronger, and there's no bloody wrong in that, is it?

Anyway, both sides are doing wrong. People from both sides are killing innocent people.

So if you want pity, then fuck off.

[Mona]

Right, I'm less annoyed.

:happy:

This war is stupid. Did they need a ocuntry of their own? Why not live together with the Palestinians?

Is it so fucking hard to live together?
They could've built more houses. Which would give many a job. And the country's economy would rise. And shit. And they'd live together. And sing Kumbaya.

Idiots.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Don't talk about which channel is biaised.

You have all the channels on your side,nuff said.
Umm, no.

Maybe in the past but now a lot of the media focuses on all the negative aspects of Israel and has nothing but sympathy for all the poor Palestinans.

To be honest, I wouldn't say they really bend the truth much, however they just seem to completly ignore half of what's going on.

And please answer, are you really saying that Al-Jazeera is anti-Palestinan and pro-Israel?

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

I can't really be bothered to argue with any of Major's 'points'.

[Black Mamba]

Umm, no.

Maybe in the past but now a lot of the media focuses on all the negative aspects of Israel and has nothing but sympathy for all the poor Palestinans.

To be honest, I wouldn't say they really bend the truth much, however they just seem to completly ignore half of what's going on.

And please answer, are you really saying that Al-Jazeera is anti-Palestinan and pro-Israel?
Indeed,it is,some programmes are intented to show the real situation over there,which is rare considering that it's an Arabic channel.
For example,they once discussed the right and wrong of suicide bombings(they brought both sides in). It went so againt the Palestinians that these latter called the channel pro-Israel.
The thing is ,if you state that suicide bombings are wrong,you are against the Palestinians.
In my opinion both sides are shitting the world,2 days ago a fucker killed several jews in a suicide bombing,this morning Israel killed a man(no idea who he was) by launching a missile towards him,as expected nothing is left from him.
The whole situation is fucked up,all they need is concessions from both sides.

[ʘ]

Yeha but i can see why the palestinians would be attacking. If settlers decided to come to the UK and claim land for their own.. getting the UN to give them over half of their country to people who dont belong there... wouldnt that justify anger? Wouldnt that justify you wanting to fight back for whats yours. This is quoted from ghadi and i totally agree

“Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English or France to the French...What is going on in Palestine today cannot be justified by any moral code of conduct...If they [the Jews] must look to the Palestine of geography as their national home, it is wrong to enter it under the shadow of the British gun. A religious act cannot be performed with the aid of the bayonet or the bomb. They can settle in Palestine only by the goodwill of the Arabs..."

yes i can see why israel wasn't sympathetic towards those places, any one would, but then again surely yuo can see why palestine is acting the way they are. People cant just come into a country and expect no retaliation. I believe the israelis caused this and although yes Israel is slowly giving back the lands, it was never theirs to start with.

This is all correct, as long as you assume Israel/Palestine belongs solely to the Palestinians, while Jews have no right for it whatsoever.

I believe that both people have some right to call this land their own. Had the Palestinians accepted the UN offer, there might have been a chance for peaceful coexistence. But yeah, I can see why they would start a war back then....

[Black Mamba]

This is all correct, as long as you assume Israel/Palestine belongs solely to the Palestinians, while Jews have no right for it whatsoever.

I believe that both people have some right to call this land their own. Had the Palestinians accepted the UN offer there might have been a chance for peaceful coexistence. But yeah, I can see why they would start a war back then....
Our first president advised them to do so,they called him/us traitors,and burned our embassies in Cairo and Beirut.:rolleyes:

[ʘ]

Yeah,that's right.
Yesterday evening,in Aljazeera,they discussed how the Arabs are fearing Iran's nuclear power while they have ingore the threat that Israel represents.:rolleyes:

Maybe because it represents no threat? Unlike other countries in the region, Israel has made no declarations about wanting to wipe certain countries off the map and has expressed no expansionist desires. Yes, obviously if you keep shouting about how you want to destroy a certain country and how all of its inhabitants are infidels who deserve being burnt in hell, said country having nukes might be a daunting prospect, but surely it's solely because you're a war-mongering loony.

I don't believe any head of country in that region believes Israel will use nuclear weapons without serious provocation (and mind you, Israel had the odd case of provocation in its 57 years of existence). They keep shouting Israel's dangerous to scare their people and to gain justification for their arming efforts. Oddly enough, it's working for them.

Whether you agree with Israel having nuclear weapons or not, the fact remains that Vanunu betrayed Israel, disclosed confidential military information and thus must be punished.

And as for Israel being the US's only important ally in the Middle east, that's liek, so 60s. America has so many lackeys in that region who are willing to be used as bases for attacks on neighbouring Arab countries and who happily enjoy the Yanks' military support and oil money.

[Black Mamba]

Maybe because it represents no threat? Unlike other countries in the region, Israel has made no declarations about wanting to wipe certain countries off the map and has expressed no expansionist desires. Yes, obviously if you keep shouting about how you want to destroy a certain country and how all of its inhabitants are infidels who deserve being burnt in hell, said country having nukes might be a daunting prospect, but surely it's solely because you're a war-mongering loony.
Some of your extremists do shout it though.
I don't believe any head of country in that region believes Israel will use nuclear weapons without serious provocation (and mind you, Israel had the odd case of provocation in its 57 years of existence). They keep shouting Israel's dangerous to scare their people and to gain justification for their arming efforts. Oddly enough, it's working for them.
It's working cos that's how they were brought up,the Jews are the main enemy,it's all a cultural thingy.In a English channel,they showed how in certain parts of Israel,kids are brought in the hatred of Arabs.
Whether you agree with Israel having nuclear weapons, the fact remains that Vanunu betrayed Israel, disclosed confidential military information and thus must be punished.
True,but he showed the world what Isreal has been hiding for years now.
And as for Israel being the US's only important ally in the Middle east, that's liek, so 60s. America has so many lackeys in that region who are willing to be used as bases for attacks on neighbouring Arab countries and who happily enjoy the Yanks military support and oil money.
The support will go on forever,Israel has a huge support in the US and Europe,let's not forget that.
As long as Israel is useful to the American(keeping a balance in the ME,or keeping "terrorists" under control)the support will go on,either military,politically,economically and ideologically.

[ʘ]

^^

1. Yeah, there are extrimists in any country. Difference is, Israel's extremists must shout it to get noticed, while the other countries' ones just call a press conference (being a president, you can do these sorts of things).

2. Not an excuse. In the Palestinian Authority, it's being endorsed by the government, it's actually in their "textbooks". Again, you have loonies on both sides, I never denied it.

3. And that makes it OK? The guy's a traitor, that's a (objective) fact: He lives in Israel and he broke one of it's rules. Simple.

4. Irrelevant. My point is that Israel isn't the only ally in the Middle East.




baahhh...

[Mona]

I can't really be bothered to argue with any of Major's 'points'.

first post was just a bitter answer to that guy. Second was just .. well. Imagine a three year old saying it. :happy:

No point arguing there.

[Mona]

This is all correct, as long as you assume Israel/Palestine belongs solely to the Palestinians, while Jews have no right for it whatsoever.



The Arabs have lived there for over a thousand year. It is their country. However, it doesn't mean Jews have no right for it whatsoever. My opinion is that they could've just moved there and lived there, without having to create a new country, that they knew would create this much problem.

Ah, can't be fussed.

World peace will never happen. Nor will there be equality. A perfect environment. Happy people. All those dreams are, and will always be, dreams.

[SilentGod]

Would you like to know what we see on TV? We see how media is quietly making us believe that the Palestinians are brutal and stupid. We see how it seems as though you are the innocent ones.
Suicide bombers are just as bad as killing innocent Palestinians who just demonstrate against the war.

http://www.bendib.com/palestine/War-on-Error.jpg

[Keys]

http://www.bendib.com/palestine/War-on-Error.jpg
:LOL: :LOL:

where are you getting these from?

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Here's my cartoon summing up what I think of Israel and Palestine -

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7546/mess4fe.jpg

One big mess, as you can see.

[SilentGod]

hahahahahaha I like it.

www.bendib.com is where all those comics are from.

[Black Mamba]

Here's my cartoon summing up what I think of Israel and Palestine -

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/7546/mess4fe.jpg

One big mess, as you can see.
:LOL:




True.:(

[Mona]

http://www.bendib.com/palestine/War-on-Error.jpg

:LOL:

[Keys]

:LOL:
whats that egg do?

[ʘ]

The Arabs have lived there for over a thousand year. It is their country. However, it doesn't mean Jews have no right for it whatsoever. My opinion is that they could've just moved there and lived there, without having to create a new country, that they knew would create this much problem.



Like they lived in Germany before WW2 ? Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years as well. Even before the immigration waves of the late 1890s/ early 1910s, there have been several hundreds of them, living peacefully with the Arabs (of course there were much more Arabs at that time, but that's besides the point). As I've said, Jews also have a right to live there, because that was their country hundreds of years ago. And you don't have to be a religious person to believe that - there is sound objective historic evidence for thousands of Jews living in Israel, before they (most of them, at least) were sent into exile. And if someone's going to use the "that's history mate, they lost their country - tough luck" argument, I can do the same about all the Palestinians.

It was necessary to have a country with its own army in order to ensure another holocaust wouldn't happen. Like I've said before, the ideal solution would be to have two countries coexisting side by side. Obviously, the world doesn't work like that....

[Black Mamba]

Like they lived in Germany before WW2 ? Jews have been living in Israel for thousands of years as well. Even before the immigration waves of the late 1890s/ early 1910s, there have been several hundreds of them, living peacefully with the Arabs (of course there were much more Arabs at that time, but that's besides the point). As I've said, Jews also have a right to live there, because that was their country hundreds of years ago. And you don't have to be a religious person to believe that - there is sound objective historic evidence for thousands of Jews living in Israel, before they (most of them, at least) were sent into exile. And if someone's going to use the "that's history mate, they lost their country - tough luck" argument, I can do the same about all the Palestinians.

It was necessary to have a country with its own army in order to ensure another holocaust wouldn't happen. Like I've said before, the ideal solution would be to have two countries coexisting side by side. Obviously, the world doesn't work like that....
That not beside it that much,you kicked them out,pure and simple.

[GravityEyelids]

palastine ownz
hands down noobs ;<

[Strawberry_Juice]

As a Jew, I do support Israel as a country and Jews who want to live in that area. And I obviously support Palestinians living there (they were in the area first, hoohah). However, I don't feel that I can completely support one particular side of a bloody conflict in which both sides are guilty of horrible atrocities. I don't like Palestenians distorting Islam to justify killing innocent people, and I don't like the actions of the Israeli government. And as much as a happy-shiny-Jewish state sounds happy-shiny-Jewish, I'd rather see right now a peaceful secular nation than a violent "Jewish homeland."

I wish it were just as simple as that- put down the guns and kiss and make nice. Bah.

Don't they train you up and make you fit?
Did you know that smaller paratroopers carry more than bigger soldiers because of the weight a parachute can carry!
All the people that I know who have gone into the Israeli army are insanely good at push-ups. :stunned:
Like, to the point of being disturbing...

[Lauraness]

No, I do not support Zionism.

Would it be wrong to say the jews pulling America's string wish for Zionism to be spread throughout the world?

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Haha.

My grandfather is on the Zionist committee in Israel, it's a bunch of old people who drink tea and talk about where to have memorials and what museums should be built.

[craigacp]

No, I do not support Zionism.

Would it be wrong to say the jews pulling America's string wish for Zionism to be spread throughout the world?


I understood Zionism to be the creation of a Jewish homeland. I thought now they had Israel it was about protecting it rather than spreading it.

[Liron]

No, I do not support Zionism.

Would it be wrong to say the jews pulling America's string wish for Zionism to be spread throughout the world?

Are you saying all us Israelis/Jews are in some cult to make everyone else Jews and stuff?... :LOL:

If so.. I wasn't invited :( Never heard of it.

[GravityEyelids]

wtf Stansfield, dont u know i just sacrificed 666 arabs 4fun?
jews ownn...
soon the whole world will be under our control \o/

or:
no need to reply people who dont really know anything except our greed.

[Lauraness]

No, I'm just saying that no matter what anyone says, everything boils down to MONEY. Always has, always will. Those with more $ have more influence in the world. And if that means killing (innocent) people so what they want to happen happens, so be it. No, not all Jews have money, nor do all Jews push zionism, but the one who DO have money (and want a Jewish state because not all want that) push zionism. And since money makes the world go round, they are pulling the strings.

What I find offensive is the fact the Jews think its THEIR land. (Again, not all are extremists) Why is that? Why isn't it EVERYONES land? I have just as much right to that land as well. What kind of right to a land do you think you have? You think every religion can just take some land cause the have the right to it? Your religion and nationality are two completely different things. A considerably smaller population of Jews were given more land than a whole lot of Muslims when the UN dropped in to partake in the division.

I'd honestly LOVE for to become everyone's land, but there are just too many extremes out there to support such a movement. It's sweet, and hopefully someday the world will be prepared for something like that to happen. But until then, let's just sit with capitalism. Or something.

[Liron]

No, I'm just saying that no matter what anyone says, everything boils down to MONEY. Always has, always will. Those with more $ have more influence in the world. And if that means killing (innocent) people so what they want to happen happens, so be it. No, not all Jews have money, nor do all Jews push zionism, but the one who DO have money (and want a Jewish state because not all want that) push zionism. And since money makes the world go round, they are pulling the strings.

What I find offensive is the fact the Jews think its THEIR land. (Again, not all are extremists) Why is that? Why isn't it EVERYONES land? I have just as much right to that land as well. What kind of right to a land do you think you have? You think every religion can just take some land cause the have the right to it? Your religion and nationality are two completely different things. A considerably smaller population of Jews were given more land than a whole lot of Muslims when the UN dropped in to partake in the division.

I'd honestly LOVE for to become everyone's land, but there are just too many extremes out there to support such a movement. It's sweet, and hopefully someday the world will be prepared for something like that to happen. But until then, let's just sit with capitalism. Or something.

Ok, I'll start off by saying a left-wing extremist... basically - I don't really see Israel as *my* country, I just see it as the place I was unfortunately born at and lived at for my entire life.

Regarding the money issues... Israel is very poor for a Western country, but well, I didn't really understand that so nevermind, ignore this comment lol

Moving on, already said my personal views on that but I have to respond in the name of others - I think EVERY country sees its lands as THEIR lands or else, why would countries like UK/France/US/etc... have such strong rules against immigrants?
I can understand the religious people see this land as a place that belongs to the Jews but on this I agree with you... when they moved here Arabs were living on these lands and the Jews simply took them, yes. And I completely agree with what you said - I think these lands should have been given to both the Jews and the Arabs to live together, unfortunately as ideal as that sounds I doubt it'd have been this easy.
You also must not forget that the Jews FLED (if that's how you spell that word) to these lands cos they had NO WHERE ELSE TO BE. The lands they were living in before, that should be free for anyone to live in regardless to race, religion, etc etc like you said, simply GAVE many of them away to the Germans (well, some countries fought but many European countries were more than happy to get rid of the Jews), where else would they go if not to the land which THEY believe was promised to their fathers' fathers' fathers'...?

So yeah, on one hand - you can't really blame the Jews for coming here and wanting their own place for a change. Truth is, there are still hundreds of Anti-Semetic acts happening a year in every Western country.
But on the other you are completely right that we've (well, not me personally lol) taken people's lands.. (although I have to mention Muslims/Arabs have MANY lands outside of Israel. And there are over a million Arabs living inside of Israel just like any Jew... it's only the Palestinians that the country treats really unfairly) and ideally one day this country will actually be democratic and religion-free. Unfortunately now the government fears the extreme religious far too much (well, the one Prime Minister we had who had the balls to actually try and bring peace with the Palestinians was shot dead by a religious extremist)... you need to see how hard a shop here has to work to be able to open on Saturdays or sell unkosher food...

I'm really sorry for my terrible English, I'm very bad at giving my opinions, especially when it's 7:30am and I haven't slept a second last night lol

[Liron]

OMG I totally paniced now cos the comp went dead and I was sure it didn't send that last message! :eek:

phew.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Lots of land was bought by Jews from Arabs in the early 1900's. It baffles me how people continue to ignore this fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Zionism_and_immigration

'Jews bought land from individual Arab landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions erupted between the Jews and Arabs.'

'The Jews in the region increased from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940. 28% of the land was already bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews'

So, before Israel was even created 28% of the land was already owned by Jews. Today in Israel the population is at least 20% Arabs too (not including Palestine obviously). This gets ignored as well.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

This is interesting too -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_massacre

[GorkerMorker]

So, before Israel was even created 28% of the land was already owned by Jews. Today in Israel the population is at least 20% Arabs too (not including Palestine obviously). This gets ignored as well.

So, even if that was true it still means that 78% of the land was taken from the palestinians.
And please stop this nonsense about arabs and jews, it's about Israelis and Palestinians.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

So, even if that was true it still means that 78% of the land was taken from the palestinians.

No, the 20% doesn't include Palestine.

When Israel was split in two by the UN it was 55% Israel, 45% Palestine. Israelies already owned half of that land and at least 20% (1.3m I think) of the rest is still Arabs. They're called Arab-Israelis by the way.

Not many people seem to be aware of the facts from my experience.

[GorkerMorker]

Yeah we don't know of these facts because you're giving a nice swing to those 'facts'. You talk as if Israel always existed. There was no such thing as Israel before the land got split up and people where driven away from it. These percentages of land all consists of very tiny pieces of land spread across the country, everything between has been claimed by the so called state of Israel.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Haha, you think I'm lying? you think I just made up those statistics? just because they're not Pro-Palestinian and Anti-Israel? Thinks for proving my ignorance point.

Feel free to prove it by the way. Also feel free to prove that last sentence. Or did you just guess it?

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Actually here's a picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Map_of_Jewish_settlements_in_Palestine_in_1947.png

'The Jewish population was concentrated in settlement areas in 1947. The borders were drawn to encompass them, placing most of the Jewish population in the Jewish state. (Map reflects Jewish owned land not the size and number of settlements. It does not imply that only Jews lived here or that all other land was owned or exclusively populated by Arabs.)'

Bear in mind that the Negev desert (south of Beersheba) is inhospitable by anyone.

[craigacp]

So yeah, on one hand - you can't really blame the Jews for coming here and wanting their own place for a change. Truth is, there are still hundreds of Anti-Semetic acts happening a year in every Western country.

The rest of your post seems fairly straightforward, but this isn't really a balanced claim. There is discrimination all over the world, banding together into little groups and not mixing is not the way to remove tensions.

[Liron]

The rest of your post seems fairly straightforward, but this isn't really a balanced claim. There is discrimination all over the world, banding together into little groups and not mixing is not the way to remove tensions.

But not many of these groups were killed by the millions during World War II.

The Jews fled to Israel from all over Europe during those years. For example, my dad never had a family cos my grandma's entire family was killed during the Holocaust. The Polish simply gave them away to the Germans.
My grandma was the only one who survived cos she was little and managed to get away and came to Israel, like many others, they felt it was the only place they could run too.

And Israel has always been considered a 'safe place' (feels funny saying that) too all Jews from all over the world, a lot of Jews still live around Europe for example, they come across anti-semetic acts and always say that atleast they know they have a place to go to.
I do think the Jews are in need of a country with a majority of Jews, but I don't think it should be considered a strictly 'Jewish' country and should allow entrance to everyone.

[CorruptDictator]

I prefer the Palestinians, anytime. Why? Because their government is very corrupt and undemocratic, and I love corrupt dictatorships!

On other side, Israel has its' corrupt politicians as well. So it's not so bad after all :) The only problem is, that Israel is considered as a democracy, and I HATE democratic things. So, I'm proud to announce I hate Israel. Hopefully, it still has people like Sharon, Ramon and Katzav the President, who know a thing or two about corruption :D

Arafat was my ultimate hero. He was a perfect example to how a real corrupt dictator must be. Since he died, Palestine would never be the same. I hate to see Abbas trying to act like a democrat :mad:

[Liron]

I prefer the Palestinians, anytime. Why? Because their government is very corrupt and undemocratic, and I love corrupt dictatorships!

On other side, Israel has its' corrupt politicians as well. So it's not so bad after all :) The only problem is, that Israel is considered as a democracy, and I HATE democratic things. So, I'm proud to announce I hate Israel. Hopefully, it still has people like Sharon, Ramon and Katzav the President, who know a thing or two about corruption :D

Arafat was my ultimate hero. He was a perfect example to how a real corrupt dictator must be. Since he died, Palestine would never be the same. I hate to see Abbas trying to act like a democrat :mad:

I tried to laugh from what you just said... but nah, I just don't find it funny.

[CorruptDictator]

I tried to laugh from what you just said... but nah, I just don't find it funny.
I would cry a river if I lived in Israel. So I can perfectly understand you, my Jewlicious friend!

[Strawberry_Juice]

Ehhhehhhh.... :erm:

[Liron]

Ehhhehhhh.... :erm:

My reaction was more on the lines of...
'ermmmmmmmmmmmmmm :rolleyes: '

[ʘ]

The rest of your post seems fairly straightforward, but this isn't really a balanced claim. There is discrimination all over the world, banding together into little groups and not mixing is not the way to remove tensions.

Jews have been living in Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. It wasn't like the West or anyone just randomly picked a godforsaken land and handed it over to them. Both people have some right of the place.

And the 'not mixing' thing doesn't hold either, because there are a lot of "mixed" cities around Israel, and I'm pretty sure you'd be able to find some Arab families in every predominantly Jewish town/city and vice versa...

[craigacp]

Jews have been living in Israel/Palestine for thousands of years. It wasn't like the West or anyone just randomly picked a godforsaken land and handed it over to them. Both people have some right of the place.

And the 'not mixing' thing doesn't hold either, because there are a lot of "mixed" cities around Israel, and I'm pretty sure you'd be able to find some Arab families in every predominantly Jewish town/city and vice versa...


I didn't say that Jews have no right to live in Israel, I said that it was strange to single out anti-semitism over any other form of discrimination as if its worse.

But if you retreat into one country then you isolate yourself from the people who had a problem with you, thus leaving you unable to change their views, thus perpetuating the injustice. This then cycles round so more people isolate themselves and the injustice continues.

[Liron]

But if you retreat into one country then you isolate yourself from the people who had a problem with you, thus leaving you unable to change their views, thus perpetuating the injustice. This then cycles round so more people isolate themselves and the injustice continues.

The PROBLEM was, however, that 6 million people were murdered. If these people stayed in Europe they would have been killed too. I really don't see any other answer but isolation to that problem.

Jews are still hated by many people. Israel's bad reputation (and deeds) don't really help either. There are still anti-semetic acts in almost every country.
I think the fact Israel exists means there's no chance there'll be Holocaust 2, but I don't know how it would have been like if there was no Jewish country.

[craigacp]

The PROBLEM was, however, that 6 million people were murdered. If these people stayed in Europe they would have been killed too. I really don't see any other answer but isolation to that problem.

As has been pointed out elsewhere it wasn't just Jews that were murdered. I know there were lots of displaced people after WW2, and they had to go somewhere, so they went to Israel. Whilst it doesn't seem a brilliant idea, it was the only solution available so it had to be done.


Jews are still hated by many people. Israel's bad reputation (and deeds) don't really help either. There are still anti-semetic acts in almost every country.

There is discrimination and hatred of groups of people the world over. There are acts of racist violence everywhere. (As an unrelated aside, where does the word anti-semetic, or semetic come from?)

I think the fact Israel exists means there's no chance there'll be Holocaust 2, but I don't know how it would have been like if there was no Jewish country.


In a somewhat flippant response it could happen if Ahmadinejad gets slightly trigger happy.

[GorkerMorker]

Actually here's a picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Map_of_Jewish_settlements_in_Palestine_in_1947.png

'The Jewish population was concentrated in settlement areas in 1947. The borders were drawn to encompass them, placing most of the Jewish population in the Jewish state. (Map reflects Jewish owned land not the size and number of settlements. It does not imply that only Jews lived here or that all other land was owned or exclusively populated by Arabs.)'

Bear in mind that the Negev desert (south of Beersheba) is inhospitable by anyone.

Ah right, now look at the big fat name on that map.

[craigacp]

That would mean an Islamic Republic bombing the Al Asqa Mosque. third most holy site in the whole of Islam. Hardly going to happen is it.


Well considering that the holiness of certain sites seems to be decided based on what sect of the religion you are in, I'm sure they could find a group that declared it to be tainted and needed to be cleansed.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

What about the million+ Arab-Israelis?

[ʘ]

But if you retreat into one country then you isolate yourself from the people who had a problem with you, thus leaving you unable to change their views, thus perpetuating the injustice. This then cycles round so more people isolate themselves and the injustice continues.

1. Jews inside and outside of Israel are working against descrimination and anti-sematism.

2. There are still more Jews outside of Israel than inside (hell, New York itself has almost the same number of Jews Israel has).

3. What, because Ze Germans in WW2 were responsible to the death of 6 million Jews they're not allowed into Israel? Are the Polish and Russians forbidden from entering it, too?



I really don't see what isolation you're talking about. Like Stansfield said, the founding of a Jewish country is to prevent a second holocaust and so that every Jewish person in the world will know he has a country, a home.

[craigacp]

1. Jews inside and outside of Israel are working against descrimination and anti-sematism.

2. There are still more Jews outside of Israel than inside (hell, New York itself has almost the same number of Jews Israel has).

3. What, because Ze Germans in WW2 were responsible to the death of 6 million Jews they're not allowed into Israel? Are the Polish and Russians forbidden from entering it, too?

Its more that the tendency of cultures under attack is to bind closer together and become more insular, which isn't the way to convince people that attacking you is wrong as it just lets them perpetuate their own myths.


I really don't see what isolation you're talking about. Like Stansfield said, the founding of a Jewish country is to prevent a second holocaust and so that every Jewish person in the world will know he has a country, a home.


Every person in the world already has a home. Its called Earth.

[GravityEyelids]

-.-
nub

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

?

[GorkerMorker]

-.-
nub
Finally a sensible comment in this thread!

[Liron]

Finally a sensible comment in this thread!

:LOL:

[muse-dementia]

just because ehud oldbert is an asshole doesn't mean that israel has no meaning.
just because the jews had to flee from wherever they were and had to make theyre own land doesnt mean that if the arabs controlled israel it wouldv'e been better. before the jews came, the Jordanians kicked the Palestinians' ass, and it was a very poor country.
besides, the arabs have like 30 countries they can call home, and it's about time the jews get something too. they need a place to protect themselves after being back fucked so many times throuoght history.
just because israel doesn't wanna show dead kids with theyre intestines out doesnt mean that this doesn't happen.
and if you say that more Palestinian kids die, youre right. but thats because they use them as a human shield, and train them to fight against israel.

of course, i am aware of all the crimes and injustices against the Palestinians
and i hope it will come to a full stop. i think both sides are guilty, and not only israel. i really don't know why ppl like to blame israel for everything.



think about it before you blame them!!
__________________

[GorkerMorker]

Okay, so the jews needed a new country to 'flee' to. Then, why Palestina? They never asked for it, oh sure some landlords sold the ground to some jews, but apart from that, palestina never agreed to get INVADED.

[muse-dementia]

this is where Jews belong to. like i already said-the Arabs have dozens of countries to flee to.and the Arabs weren't invaded. the Arabs and Jews lived here in peace for many centuries.they both wanted the land. but the British gave it to the Jews. if the Arabs would've been controlling that place they would litterly use there force as a country and attempt to exterminate and destroy the Jews(of course they would never succed).

[Lauraness]

Woohoo! Old thread revival.

The nations of the world had been playing musical chairs with land and borders since the beginning of human history. One day, after World War II, the U.N. turned off the music and said, "Okay, everyone stay where you are, these are how the nations of the world will be from now on."

Unfortunately for a sect of Arabs, Israel was in what used to be their chair when the music stopped. There really isn't a fair way to decide this when you play by such dumb rules.



Anywhooos.

Just as an interesting tidbit of historical trivia, Abd al-Aziz Al Saud was reported to have suggested this very thing to FDR in 1945.

60th Anniversary of Historic Meeting between King Abdulaziz and President Franklin Delano Roosevelt

To the rest of the world, Saudi Arabia was still largely unknown and the Middle East a sideshow in the great war against the Axis powers, but the Americans were soon to see how the country's profile had been elevated in the official Washington. On February 14, 1945, Abdul Aziz met President Roosevelt aboard the USS Quincy in Egypt's Great Bitter Lake.

[snip from an old news article no longer recent]

In his opening paragraph, Eddy describes the king as "one of the great men of the twentieth century. He won his kingdom and united his people by his personal leadership. He possessed those epic qualities of the leader which Samuel recognized in Saul; he excelled in the common tasks which all must perform. He was taller, his shoulders were broader, he was better hunter, a braver warrior, more skillful in wielding a knife whether in personal combat or in skinning sheep; he excelled in following the tracks of camels and finding his way in the desert."

Eddy's account of the voyage from Jeddah harbor to Great Bitter Lake aboard the Murphy is quiet droll: "A good time was had by all except me," he wrote, because it was his responsibility to sort out the cultural clashes. Not only did the king insist on bringing sheep but he demanded that the American sailors join him in eating them, in accordance with the laws of Arab hospitality. He was deterred only when informed that the crew was prohibited by Navy regulations from eating anything except the military rations provided for them: Surely he did not wish to see these fine young men sent to the brig!

The king inspected with interest the ship's armaments and navigational devices. His sons and others in his party had more frivolous interests: They were fascinated by a movie shown in the crew quarters that featured Lucille Ball "loose in a college men's dormitory late at night, barely surviving escapades in which her dress is ripped off."

In his talks with Roosevelt, Eddy wrote, the king did not even hint at any desire for financial assistance. "He traveled to the meeting seeking friends and not funds," and that is what he got, despite the arguments about Palestine and Jewish immigration. The king's view was that if the suffering of the Jews had been caused by the Germans, Germans should pay the price for it; let the Jews build their homeland on the best lands in Germany, not on the territory of Arabs who had nothing to do with what happened to them. The most he could get from Roosevelt was a promise that the president would "do nothing to assist the Jews against the Arabs and would make no move hostile to the Arab people." The king taking this as a commitment from the United States and not just from Roosevelt personally, was furious to discover three years later that Harry Truman did not consider himself bound by it.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Well, about 40-45% of current Israel (not inculding Palestine) was owned by Jews. My grandmother moved to Israel after fleeing from Morocco to a kibbutz bought in 1913 by the Jewish National fund and helped set up by my Russian great grandfather.

There's over 1.5 million Arab Israelis living in Israel. In 1948 the total population of Israel was less than a million.

The kibbutz was sold by a landownder from the much bigger Arabic town of Abu Gosh. They're both neighbours now and get along fine (they work in the Kibbutz, we eat at their restaurants etc)

It's interesting how people who've never been to Israel form their views via whatever media they choose to watch/read.

[GorkerMorker]

It's also amazing, yet very understandable how people base their opinion on wether they have to confess that they're occupieng a piece of land that is not their own.

I mean, I know it would be hard for me to be convinced by someone who actually told me that i'm not supposed to live here.

[Lauraness]

Israel has no more right to its land than the Palestinians do. Just because their Book says it's their land doesn't make it true. If I had a religion that said my homeland was all of Manhattan and I could make everyone there pay me rent, people would say I'm a loonie.

I also thought this was interesting: This is right before the UN held a moment of silence for the suicide bombers. And I'm actually not kidding here...the UN really does this stuff.

http://www.eyeontheun.org/assets/images/resources/list_4/01-m-map-with-flags.jpg

This is the prominent UN public display which was used to mark the commemoration of "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People" on November 29, 2005. The Palestinian flag is on one side. The UN flag is on the other side. A map without the UN member state of Israel stands between them.

And to just add fuel to the fire, it would suck ass if your race survived Egyptian slavery, Babylonian Captivity, Emperor Nero, Titus and the Roman legions, the Crusaders massacring every Jew in sight, the Inquisition and Torquemada, Eastern European pogroms, Russian Czars, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler and the Holocaust, 3 successive Arab wars of (attempted) annihilation, and then you get wiped out by a bunch of Persian mullahs with turbans and 5th grade education.

In my mind, anyone with brains would get the hell out of that shiathole ASAP, because #1- It's the stinky ass med desert, #2 ALL YOUR NEIGHBORS HATE YOU. That's not the promised land, that's Manhattan. Their presence there alone is seen as contemptuous by their neighbors. Oh, wait, it's not a stinking desert anymore, at least where the Jewish people live.

Currently there are Jews on "the land". Before about 60 years ago it was Arab land. Before the Jews were kicked out by the Romans roughly 2000 years ago, it was Jewish land, and even longer ago than that, it was Arab land, until as described in the Old Testament, the Jews ethnically cleansed the area via genocide. It gets better. Fossile records show that even longer ago, Neandertals lived there, and consider that they were a non-human sentient species on a separate branch of evolution from humans, we know, scientifically, that the land originally belonged to Neandertals.

The question is, was the land original stolen from the Neandertals, or did they die out or leave the land before any Arabs or Jews showed up to call it their's?

[GorkerMorker]

Maybe it's just me, and call it downright pretentious, crude, and unsubtle...

But I easily associate anyone who thinks their 'race' (an ugly word on it's own) has privileges for any reason to do with their 'ancestors', with fascists.

[Lauraness]

Maybe it's just me, and call it downright pretentious, crude, and unsubtle...

But I easily associate anyone who thinks their 'race' (an ugly word on it's own) has privileges for any reason to do with their 'ancestors', with fascists.

Of course. I do agree somewhat that Zionism is pretty much the Jewish version of Nazism. They use the history of persecution against Jews to rationalize a blatant breach of human rights, and then go on to murder thousands of Palestinians each year with the pretext that they have been attacked by terrorists.

Israel gets support from the US which means they get the "nasty weaponry." Whileas the Palastines who get pretty much jack shit, have to rely on homemade, crude weaponry. Terror/Error anyone?

I'm not saying that the Nazi camps were nice places to spend some time, but I do believe this footnote in history is blown out of proportion and use it to justify any illegal an/or shiatty thing they want to do.

Genghis Khan slaughtered 30 MILLION chinese peasants.
Stalin, 20 MILLION (insert anytype of person he hated here)
The Japanese RAPED/SLAUGHTERED people in Nanking
Pol Pot, 8 Million Cambodians struck into the ground.

So by using the Jews model for justice, should the above be able to seek reparations from their governments, be allowed to take whatever land they want, and treat to local people like shiat, all with the blessings of the world community?

Personally speaking, any arguments about a "right to the land" from the bible, or holy book, or having lived there many thousands of years ago are retarded.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Comparing Zionism to Nazism is genuinely hilarious. I laughed out loud.

Deciding the whole Zionist movement is fascist and seemingly implying it somehow represents the viewpoints of the Jewish consensus is like saying Shirley Phelps-Roper represents the views of American christianity. The reality is fundementalist Orthodox Jews are a vast minority.

The main zionist movement, which is secular, was formed in response to mass anti-semitism and violent persecution of the Jews in certain places of the world. They wanted a homeland as a place of refuge and safety, they BOUGHT most of the land.

As I said, Israel has 1.5 million Arab Israelis and they have it very well off compared to the Palestinians but Israel will never compromise it's safety, especially in the face of another willing mass of execution of the Jews by our neighbours.

We realise it's fucking shit for innocent Palestinians right now but unlike the general trend at the moment, we also believe that it's possible to live side by side in peace. We live with Arab Israelis and get on just fine.

[GorkerMorker]

That's exactely why i avoided nazism or any other link to the 2nd world war. I'm not trying to relativise any historical event in the past.

But yes, i was already afraid that people drew the link too easy.

I'm talking about fascism. Nazism is a form of fascim, fascism is not a form of nazism.

The idea that anything to do with ancestors and/or race can be taken as a valid argument.

[Jan]

Of course. I do agree somewhat that Zionism is pretty much the Jewish version of Nazism. They use the history of persecution against Jews to rationalize a blatant breach of human rights, and then go on to murder thousands of Palestinians each year with the pretext that they have been attacked by terrorists.

Could you be a doll and expand a bit more?

[Lauraness]

Nazism supported a homeland (in Europe) for the German people. The Germans went through a country by the name of Poland and wanted to clear it out of the Poles. The Polish resisted but eventually were torn down by the German war machine. No doubt there were "German" people already living there like in other occupied countries.

Zionism says a book says the Jews have a right to the land where is Israel is. Even though there are, iunno, PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE.

They both have a desire for national identity, national socialism, "self-determination", and "freedom" from those who might be called "troublemakers". In fact, they are both philosophies of imagined racial superiority, which have rationalized all of their actions in the name of some greater "good" or "God." In Hitler's Germany there were marriage laws and in Zionist Israel state paid Rabbi's of the fundamentalist Orthodox Judaism don't recognize marriages outside.

However, unlike the Nazis the Jews have created a ethnic/nation that lives within other nations and seeks to bend them to their will, giving unwavering support for the racist theocratic state of Israel.

[Liron]

In a perfect world.. Israelis and Palestinians (and Israeli Arabs) could both live together in all areas of the country without all the fighting.
Why is this so hard to do though? It's all the extremists, both Israeli and Palestinian..

I don't support Israel as the country it is today, although I live in it. I would give the world for it to be a democracy rather than a "Jewish country". But what can one actually do?

We can debate for years, that's not going to help.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Nazism supported a homeland (in Europe) for the German people. The Germans went through a country by the name of Poland and wanted to clear it out of the Poles. The Polish resisted but eventually were torn down by the German war machine. No doubt there were "German" people already living there like in other occupied countries.

Zionism says a book says the Jews have a right to the land where is Israel is. Even though there are, iunno, PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE.

They both have a desire for national identity, national socialism, "self-determination", and "freedom" from those who might be called "troublemakers". In fact, they are both philosophies of imagined racial superiority, which have rationalized all of their actions in the name of some greater "good" or "God." In Hitler's Germany there were marriage laws and in Zionist Israel state paid Rabbi's of the fundamentalist Orthodox Judaism don't recognize marriages outside.

However, unlike the Nazis the Jews have created a ethnic/nation that lives within other nations and seeks to bend them to their will, giving unwavering support for the racist theocratic state of Israel.
Please get a grip.

The Poland 'link' is tenuos to say the least. You listed some generic ideals shared by most organisations in an attempt to convey their similarities then started to make them up.

Infact your whole theory on Zionism and Israel is half baked and only vaguely feasible to someone with a blank mind on the subject.

I'm not denying that a small minority in Israel share a similar(ish) view to what you state is the unified mentality of the whole nation but they're just that, a minority.

[Lauraness]

Kazuya, It's actually not that far of a comparison. You entered a country where even though there were some people like you, there were still others there who didn't exactly like it and they weren't heard.

Believe me when I say this, I am NOT racist, but I DO NOT believe the IDEA of Zionism behind it was all too good/nice. Part of me just wants to scream out, what makes you so special? There are other people in other countries who have been fighting their current governments and still have no place to truly call "home." Is it because the Israeli people fall under the "White Middle/Upper class" that people seem to care more about them?

I have no qualms with the Israel people in general. The ones I've been with are very, very, nice people. Yes, I think you do deserve to have a home, but not in the way it was done and certainly not pushed.

Yes, I think Israel is a beautiful country comapired to the *cough*shithole*cough*places around it. Tel Aviv = gorgeous.

Yes, you guys make some very kickass falafel. (Dammit why did I think of that now?!)

Yes, and of course you have the VERY hittable female IDF.

My other post with the picture pretty much hits with what I think about Israel, the other with the IDEA of Zionism. It's a very complex issue, and no side is completly innocent, but I'm personally sure I'd help the person who doesn't wish to be crowned with entrails.

[Jan]

Nazism supported a homeland (in Europe) for the German people. The Germans went through a country by the name of Poland and wanted to clear it out of the Poles. The Polish resisted but eventually were torn down by the German war machine. No doubt there were "German" people already living there like in other occupied countries.

Zionism says a book says the Jews have a right to the land where is Israel is. Even though there are, iunno, PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE.

They both have a desire for national identity, national socialism, "self-determination", and "freedom" from those who might be called "troublemakers". In fact, they are both philosophies of imagined racial superiority, which have rationalized all of their actions in the name of some greater "good" or "God." In Hitler's Germany there were marriage laws and in Zionist Israel state paid Rabbi's of the fundamentalist Orthodox Judaism don't recognize marriages outside.

However, unlike the Nazis the Jews have created a ethnic/nation that lives within other nations and seeks to bend them to their will, giving unwavering support for the racist theocratic state of Israel.

PRETHINGY I'm really tired so this might not make sense. Also, I don't know a huge amount on this subject but righto.

Like you (I'm guessing) I'm normally more sympathetic to Palestinians. However, I simply cannot get past you linking Zionism and Nazism.

Throughout history, nations have moved into other lands where other people are living. America and the Native Americans is a classic example. I'm not saying that's right or defending this actions, but connecting this to the Nazi war machine is silly. You can't say oop they took someone else's land = Nazism. Also, I don't think Palestine, Arabs, whatever were recognized as a country then? They weren't unified at all, more as a bunch of nomads. Weren't they? I don't know much so please correct me if I'm wrong.

ALSO.

I don't really know your connection to the Jewish marriage thing, but lots of Arab countries and practices seem strict to us. So I also don't understand what this has to do with Nazism.

With the whole "self determination" bit and whatever, I think Arab governments have the same point of view. So why is Israel the bad guy? Why are you only comparing them to the Nazis?

Anyway, I'm not incredibly sympathetic to Israel, and I don't agree with its creation. However, I don't understand why Israel is ALWAYS the bad guy in everything. It takes two to tango.

And I still can't connect Zionism to Nazism by your judgements. From that point of view you could connect loads of things with Nazis.

[ʘ]

Nazism supported a homeland (in Europe) for the German people. The Germans went through a country by the name of Poland and wanted to clear it out of the Poles. The Polish resisted but eventually were torn down by the German war machine. No doubt there were "German" people already living there like in other occupied countries.

Zionism says a book says the Jews have a right to the land where is Israel is. Even though there are, iunno, PEOPLE ALREADY LIVING THERE.


People seem to forget that in 1948 the Jewish Government agreed to the UN decision. They didn't want the whole of Israel for themselves; they didn't want to kick out all the Arabs. Had the Palestinians agreed to that decision, there could have been 2 countries, living side by side. The secular Jews who founded the state believed Israel is their country, not because it says so in a book, but because there were Jews there and because their great great grandfathers actually lived there.

Most Jews can trace back their family linage hundrads of years back to common ancestors. Family names that are in use now can often be found in archeological findings from Israel that date back thousands of year ago.


They both have a desire for national identity, national socialism, "self-determination", and "freedom" from those who might be called "troublemakers". ]

Which are desires shared by most NATIONS. Back in the late 40s, you had a group of people that was almost wiped out and was pretty much kicked out of every country it had lived in the last couple of centuries. Don't you think a national identity would be something they'd look for?

As for the last bit ("Feedom from troublemakers), that's not what Israel was founded upon; that's not a guiding principal in its laws and ideologies. Fighting back is a necessity, unfortunately...


In fact, they are both philosophies of imagined racial superiority, which have rationalized all of their actions in the name of some greater "good" or "God." In Hitler's Germany there were marriage laws and in Zionist Israel state paid Rabbi's of the fundamentalist Orthodox Judaism don't recognize marriages outside.

That "racial superiority" crap is something most Jews don't subscribe to and is definitely not what the founders of the state had in mind. As people have said here before, there was somewhat peaceful co-existence before the war broke. Also, if the Jews believed they were superior, why would they bother buying land off the Palestinians? Why wouldn't they just take it and use the original owners as slaves?

Most of the original ideologies on which the state of Israel was founded were common in the West, at the time (and most of them are still in use today, of course). (Then again, most of the Western ideas of "good" and "bad" come from the bible, too :rolleyes:). Heck, the country was founded on socialistic (maybe even slightly communist) ideas! Maybe I should read my Bible again and, cause I've obviously missed a chapter or two..


However, unlike the Nazis the Jews have created a ethnic/nation that lives within other nations and seeks to bend them to their will, giving unwavering support for the racist theocratic state of Israel.


Riiiiiiiiiight. Ain't gonna argue 'bout that, but I'm sure you know where I stand on that...





I know I say it every month, but this argument is getting stale. I'm sick and tired of having to repeat the same shit over and over again.

[ʘ]

Err, if they lived in peace for centuries then what the hell is Purim all about then? Celebrating the mass slaughter of 'Gentiles' is hardly conducive to good relations it it.

You smoke way too much weeed, dude :p

The setting of Purim is in ancient Iran/Iraq or Persia. It celebrates avoiding being annihilated by an evil advisor to the Persian king.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

KMe1HfPNq7Y

:)

Something about this video makes me laugh.

[ʘ]

[yut]KMe1HfPNq7Y[/yt]

:)

Something about this video makes me laugh.

OMG, hot. :happy:

[Tania]

OMG, hot. :happy:

You so wish you were back in the IDF now..... ;)

[mr.jingles]

Both are fucked up.

The sad thing is that whenever someone comes along standing for achieving peace through diplomatic talks like Yitzhak Rabin, they either get killed, or their pleas fall on deaf ears like it's happening with Abbas right now.

[ʘ]

Both are fucked up.

The sad thing is that whenever someone comes along standing for achieving peace through diplomatic talks like Yitzhak Rabin, they either get killed, or their pleas fall on deaf ears like it's happening with Abbas right now.

"Right now" as in "5 years ago"? :p

Abu Mazan's "pleas" aren't exactly falling on deaf ears, because there is an understanding among the Israelis that he is serious can be a partner (just yesterday, his forces rescued an Israeli officer from certain death by angry mob). The problem is, that both parties, and mainly the Israeli one, are nervous and slightly untrusting after the Oslo agreement collapse.

There is willingness between the 2 leaders (Mazan and Olmert) to achieve peace, it'll just be a slow process.


What will happen in Gaza - that's a completely differnet issue.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Saudi Arabia will be very important in any peace negotiations.

I think they'll be quite keen to get it going quickly because they don't want Iran to become too involved. They're definitely aware of Iran's growing power and infleunce and won't want to be overtaken as the leading Arabian power in the middle east.

Also their ideals are far more diplomatic, reasonable and achievable. If Iran gets further involved it would just get messier.

[mr.jingles]

"Right now" as in "5 years ago"? :p

Abu Mazan's "pleas" aren't exactly falling on deaf ears, because there is an understanding among the Israelis that he is serious can be a partner (just yesterday, his forces rescued an Israeli officer from certain death by angry mob). The problem is, that both parties, and mainly the Israeli one, are nervous and slightly untrusting after the Oslo agreement collapse.

There is willingness between the 2 leaders (Mazan and Olmert) to achieve peace, it'll just be a slow process.


What will happen in Gaza - that's a completely differnet issue.

When I say that they're falling on "deaf ears" I'm talking about the Palestinians themselves.

There's no doubt that the Israelis see Abbas as their only key to bring stability, and while some Palestinians see Abbas as an important figure due to the International respect and support he gets, others who are in their majority Hamas supporters see Abbas as a person of weak character who will only allow more opression from the Israelis.

[ʘ]

.

There's no doubt that the Israelis see Abbas as their only key to bring stability, and while some Palestinians see Abbas as an important figure due to the International respect and support he gets, others who are in their majority Hamas supporters see Abbas as a person of weak character who will only allow more opression from the Israelis.

I sort of agree with that, I'm just not used to him being called "Abbas" - I'm more used to "Abu Mazen". (Although I think the majority of Palestinians who live in the West Bank prefer Abu Mazen and the Fatah over the Hamas)

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Hamas supporters are only the majority in Gaza. Also they shouldn't be appeased, at least until their cause renounces violences and recognises Israel as a state.

I don't see how a peace deal would oppress the Palestinians further though. Perhaps it would oppress certain Palestinian ideals and dreams they have of the future but these are unrealistic anyway. Both sides obviously need to compromise.

[GorkerMorker]

See that's funny you say that the dreams of Palestinian people of having their country back again are unrealistic. I mean, what makes it unrealistic? The lack of gun power and financial support?

I'm also getting tired of being called an antisemitic every time I tell people I'm not in favor of this whole Israel agenda. It's a cheap and easy way to use the second world war.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

What exactly do you mean by them having their country back?

[GorkerMorker]

Well, okay not everything, just the parts that got bulldozed over.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6991718.stm

Old news but still a big deal in Israel. Israeli warplanes have taken out a target in Syria but nobody knows what it is.

Long-standing contacts are uncharacteristically silent, noting only that Israel's military censorship on this subject is as tight as they can ever remember.

It's obviously some kind of weapon/s that was going to be used against Israel and considering there hasn't been so much as a hint of condemnation from Syria, I'd imagine it was both a successful mission and a just cause. All the Syrians have really said so far, about a week after it happened, is that the American press are wrong in speculating that it was a nuclear facility linked with North Korea.

My guess is after the Lebanon farce last year, Israel will be far more efficient with it's pre-emptive attacks against anyone it sees as a real threat.

Which leads to Iran. They say it has 500-600 Shahab-3 ready and waiting to launch at Israel if it's attacked by anyone in the West. And today, for some reason, it has blocked acces to Google and Gmail for anyone inside Iran.

World War 3 is imminent.

[Lauraness]

Ugh. I seriously (do) wish someone (OTHER THAN THE US OF A) would do something about Iran. Like France. WTF was that message about the other day? I thought you know it would've been nice to go someplace and say: HI I AM FROM AMERICA AND I DO NOT SUPPORT X'S WAR. (blahblahblahetc)

They are building nuclear weapons. They are batshit fucking crazy. They have already said they want to wipe Israel off the map. They are funding terrorism. They are fighting against allied forces in Iraq.

They already have weapons capable of hitting (barely) Spain. I would a lot rather see someone (ELSE) blow the fark out of them than have to worry about who they are going to drop a nuke on at any moment.

Nuclear anihilation was the generation's problem before me.

/Tired

[Rhymes with Booze]

Ugh. I seriously (do) wish someone (OTHER THAN THE US OF A) would do something about Iran. Like France. WTF was that message about the other day? I thought you know it would've been nice to go someplace and say: HI I AM FROM AMERICA AND I DO NOT SUPPORT X'S WAR. (blahblahblahetc)

They are building nuclear weapons. They are batshit fucking crazy. They have already said they want to wipe Israel off the map. They are funding terrorism. They are fighting against allied forces in Iraq.

They already have weapons capable of hitting (barely) Spain. I would a lot rather see someone (ELSE) blow the fark out of them than have to worry about who they are going to drop a nuke on at any moment.

Nuclear anihilation was the generation's problem before me.

/Tired

And King George used up all of our trust points on this Iraq debacle, so it's not like we can really do anything about it and not look like Stalin. Fucktard.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Ugh. I seriously (do) wish someone (OTHER THAN THE US OF A) would do something about Iran. Like France. WTF was that message about the other day? I thought you know it would've been nice to go someplace and say: HI I AM FROM AMERICA AND I DO NOT SUPPORT X'S WAR. (blahblahblahetc)

They are building nuclear weapons. They are batshit fucking crazy. They have already said they want to wipe Israel off the map. They are funding terrorism. They are fighting against allied forces in Iraq.

They already have weapons capable of hitting (barely) Spain. I would a lot rather see someone (ELSE) blow the fark out of them than have to worry about who they are going to drop a nuke on at any moment.

Nuclear anihilation was the generation's problem before me.

/Tired
To be fair, France have become much tougher on Iran since Sarkozy was elected. And they're definitely chummier with the US now.

[Rhymes with Booze]

To be fair, France have become much tougher on Iran since Sarkozy was elected. And they're definitely chummier with the US now.

As everyone should be. :LOL:

(Just kidding!) :$

[Janu5]

Ugh. I seriously (do) wish someone (OTHER THAN THE US OF A) would do something about Iran.

I agree, but the EU is a pussy, always been and always will be :mad: It's the western attitude toward musims that stirs up hate. And vice versa, islamic terorism.
Dead end?
I don't think so, but at the moment I don't see sensible politicians on either side. Both sides benefit from this status quo, politics, not cultures :stunned:

They are building nuclear weapons. They are batshit fucking crazy. They have already said they want to wipe Israel off the map. They are funding terrorism. They are fighting against allied forces in Iraq.

So do other countris :wtf: But Iran has got enough oil to be exposed ;)

They already have weapons capable of hitting (barely) Spain. I would a lot rather see someone (ELSE) blow the fark out of them than have to worry about who they are going to drop a nuke on at any moment.

It's politics, showing of muscles. Even the US of A and North Korea talk about it, but don't do anything :rolleyes: It's not that simple.

[Crayola]

SHITSGOINOFF

First it's the Israelis, then it's the Syrians, then it's the Lebanese then it's the Inranians, then it's the French, then it's the Americans, then it's the Russians, then it's back to the Israelis again. It's like bitches in a bitch boat. Why can't they all agree that they're all a bundle of cunts and be done with it? Proud bastards.

[Janu5]

:SHITSGOINOFF

First it's the Israelis, then it's the Syrians, then it's the Lebanese then it's the Inranians, then it's the French, then it's the Americans, then it's the Russians, then it's back to the Israelis again. It's like bitches in a bitch boat. Why can't they all agree that they're all a bundle of cunts and be done with it? Proud bastards.

:\mm/: :yesey:

[ʘ]

The Syrians aren't saying anything probably because they're afraid to admit they got attacked and haven't got the means to retaliate. It's good for both sides (Israel and Syria) to keep quiet and don't provoke one another, because, really, the only side that wants a war is Iran.

It was really quite fascinating how the whole story unfolds throughout this week. Started with rumors about some planes passing through Syria and ended (?) in talks about the bombardment of a nuclear plant.


I have a strong feeling the Iranian nuclear facilities are going to get attacked in the next year or so. I'm betting the Yanks are the ones that'll carry the attack.....


SHITSGOINOFF

First it's the Israelis, then it's the Syrians, then it's the Lebanese then it's the Inranians, then it's the French, then it's the Americans, then it's the Russians, then it's back to the Israelis again. It's like bitches in a bitch boat. Why can't they all agree that they're all a bundle of cunts and be done with it? Proud bastards.

:

:\mm/: :yesey:

Brilliant.

[Janu5]

I have a strong feeling the Iranian nuclear facilities are going to get attacked in the next year or so. I'm betting the Yanks are the ones that'll carry the attack.....

I hope you're wrong :LOL::LOL: Actually, i belive you're wrong :stunned:

I just don't think that the USA is going to be that careless after Afganistan and Iraq. They can't afford to be :stunned: I hope :unsure:

[GorkerMorker]

I seriously got a WMD deja vu here.

[Teh Man v1.2]

I hope you're wrong :LOL::LOL: Actually, i belive you're wrong :stunned:

I just don't think that the USA is going to be that careless after Afganistan and Iraq. They can't afford to be :stunned: I hope :unsure:

This is only what I've read but a massive air bombardment of around 3,000 targets is more likely, with little or no invasion forces, perhaps some special forces on the ground to weaken the infrastructure beforehand, the plan would be to simply cripple Iran's military and Nuclear capability,

a similar thing happened where Israel bombed Iran's Nuclear facilities around 20 years ago, except only this time I reckon there will be more countries involved and it will trigger off a series of very, very bad repercussions given Iran's status in the world.

[Dramatic Hammer]

Is it just me, or is bombing a nuclear facility a really bad idea?

[Lauraness]

Is it just me, or is bombing a nuclear facility a really bad idea?

Not sure. It seem to be a slight bit better to have the reactor attack than to have the/a nuke be dropped somewhere else. (Not that I want any but ehhh...)

Ie- Chernobyl vs Hiroshima

[Rhymes with Booze]

I hope you're wrong :LOL::LOL: Actually, i belive you're wrong :stunned:

I just don't think that the USA is going to be that careless after Afganistan and Iraq. They can't afford to be :stunned: I hope :unsure:

The Afghanistan offensive was never a political problem for us, only the Iraqi.

Is it just me, or is bombing a nuclear facility a really bad idea?

Yeah, but at least the damage gets contained in the country of authorship. Callous, but true.

[Janu5]

Is it just me, or is bombing a nuclear facility a really bad idea?

I gues it's just you.
And me :wtf:

[Dramatic Hammer]

Not sure. It seem to be a slight bit better to have the reactor attack than to have the/a nuke be dropped somewhere else. (Not that I want any but ehhh...)

Ie- Chernobyl vs Hiroshima
Yeah, but at least the damage gets contained in the country of authorship. Callous, but true.
Considering Chernobyl contaminated half of europe (obviously not that badly for the most part), I'm not sure which I'd prefer! It would seem a better idea to go in and shut it all down or something....

[Rhymes with Booze]

Considering Chernobyl contaminated half of europe (obviously not that badly for the most part), I'm not sure which I'd prefer! It would seem a better idea to go in and shut it all down or something....

I'm sure there are methods we can only speculate at.

[Dramatic Hammer]

I'm sure there are methods we can only speculate at.

Operation 'fuck the middle east' :D.

[craigacp]

If its a nuclear facility where they enrich Uranium, then it would be quite hard to cause a nuclear explosion, as they aren't going to keep enough of it to reach critical mass close together, at least I hope no-one is that stupid.

[ʘ]

If its a nuclear facility where they enrich Uranium, then it would be quite hard to cause a nuclear explosion, as they aren't going to keep enough of it to reach critical mass close together, at least I hope no-one is that stupid.

That's true, but I guess he/they were referring to a case where the bombardment would disperse radioactive materials in the air, which in turn could be carried by winds to God-knows where. I'm only speculating, but I think the fact that those facilities are heavily shielded by lead and concrete would cause the dangerous materials to be buried in debris, thus isolating it.


And as people have said, whoever attacks Iran, is going to do so by air, which in theory would allow them to not get deeply involved in the aftermath.
Iran is a whole different case, but looking back, both the Israeli attacks on Syria and Iraq caused no retaliation from those countries....

[GorkerMorker]

I can't actually believe that people here are discussing how to attack in Iran rather then IF we should attack Iran. For now I haven't see them do anything wrong at all, everything they do is being discussed by the UN and people here are already deciding on what's the best way to attack that country.

Millitant idiots.

[craigacp]

I can't actually believe that people here are discussing how to attack in Iran rather then IF we should attack Iran. For now I haven't see them do anything wrong at all, everything they do is being discussed by the UN and people here are already deciding on what's the best way to attack that country.

Millitant idiots.

No, its a talk about how we think people are going to attack Iran, not how people should or even if they should. Its a different matter.

[GorkerMorker]

No it wasn't.
Ugh. I seriously (do) wish someone (OTHER THAN THE US OF A) would do something about Iran. Like France. WTF was that message about the other day? I thought you know it would've been nice to go someplace and say: HI I AM FROM AMERICA AND I DO NOT SUPPORT X'S WAR. (blahblahblahetc)

They are building nuclear weapons. They are batshit fucking crazy. They have already said they want to wipe Israel off the map. They are funding terrorism. They are fighting against allied forces in Iraq.

They already have weapons capable of hitting (barely) Spain. I would a lot rather see someone (ELSE) blow the fark out of them than have to worry about who they are going to drop a nuke on at any moment.

Nuclear anihilation was the generation's problem before me.

/Tired

[craigacp]

No it wasn't.

Ok then, bar her. Advocating attacking Iran is clearly strange, especially when they aren't a threat, and talking them up only gives them an inflated sense of importance which they don't merit.

[Juuso]

No it wasn't.

Yeah, but she's american so she doesn't count. :p

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

Ok then, bar her. Advocating attacking Iran is clearly strange, especially when they aren't a threat, and talking them up only gives them an inflated sense of importance which they don't merit.
They are involved in supplying the insurgents of Iraq with weapons and helping them cause as much havoc as possible.

Also they have their very own proxy terrorist group Hezbullah.

Anyway I can't wait for Ahmedinejihad to go to New York - http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,2175038,00.html

Apart from his UN address he's having a question and answer session with students from some university. Lucky.

[Lauraness]

No it wasn't.

Also note that I put tired at the end.

I was talking about France wanting to 'declare war on Iran.' Do I want a war with Iran? No. Would I prefer that they did not have nukes? Yes. Will they eventually get them unless something is done about it? Yes. Will something (such as sanctions be put on them?) Doesn't seem that way.

Okay! So he says "...why is there not sufficient research that can approach the (Holocaust) from different perspectives?"

There is. It's just that the competent researchers all tend to arrive at a single conclusion: IT HAPPENED, DUMBASS! What other perspective do you want? "We've covered the 'it happened' angle enough. Now let's cover the 'it didn't happen' angle"? Sorry, moron, doesn't work that way.

[GorkerMorker]

Oh right, sure you can of course say anything you like without being reprimanded for it if you put 'tired' behind your post.

I don't want Iran to have nukes, just like I don't want any country to have nukes. The US has the most nuclear weapons at the moment. Let's start there. Yes, no violence, just a calm dismanteling.
Bringing political statements of a political leader,even if they maybe prohibited in certain countries, as a reason to prosecute a country. If that was the case then you could also agree with all those people who wanted to punish the danish cartoonists for drawing mohammed.

[Juuso]

To be honest, as long as a country itself has nukes, it has no right to demand that some country shouldn't get them. It doesn't cut it that USA says Iran belongs in the Axis of Evil and they shouldn't have nukes.

Actually, I think what they did with North Korea was quite wise. They settled to stop developing their nuclear program in exchange of econimal aid. Yes, it was not solely USA who settled that agreement.

[Lauraness]

Oh right, sure you can of course say anything you like without being reprimanded for it if you put 'tired' behind your post.

Of course. Which is why you should read entire posts. ;) Since it wasn't edited in there.

I don't want Iran to have nukes, just like I don't want any country to have nukes. The US has the most nuclear weapons at the moment.

Actually Russia does, not the US. The USSR produced more nukes than the US ever did. How do you think other countries (ie-Pakistan) got theirs?

Bringing political statements of a political leader,even if they maybe prohibited in certain countries, as a reason to prosecute a country. If that was the case then you could also agree with all those people who wanted to punish the danish cartoonists for drawing mohammed.

Wait what? No. A bit off topic, but is it just me or do the Muslim populations seem to be more violent hate towards dissing their religion than say Christians?

[Lauraness]

To be honest, as long as a country itself has nukes, it has no right to demand that some country shouldn't get them. It doesn't cut it that USA says Iran belongs in the Axis of Evil and they shouldn't have nukes.

Yes, but would you prefer a country that doesn't have a quite so denying president to have one.

As much as I dislike Israel and stuff, I'd prefer them to NOT get the shit nuked out of them. Can you name any country (other than those mentioned) that you'd have absolutely no issue with giving them?

There is a reason why we have freaked out about other nations getting nukes. Next up: Africa gets nukes and turns into a glowing cloud of radiation. Yep, I am saying that large parts of the world would LOVE to wipe out their ethnic rivals with nukes. So until they grow up, let's not give them an easy way to do that.

[Crayola]

France, Norway and the Federation of American Scientists would certainly disagree with you on that one, what with selling them the equipment and know-how of how to make a bomb along with some Triton to South Africa.

Then there's the whole European-American involvement in geting Israel armed and ready.

[GorkerMorker]

Wait what? No. A bit off topic, but is it just me or do the Muslim populations seem to be more violent hate towards dissing their religion than say Christians?

After seeing 'Jesus Camp' i'd say that both are equally scary. And sure, both russia and US should disarm, that's what that generation before you was protesting against without effect.

[ʘ]

So, Israel's is cutting down on the fuel and electricity supply to the Gaza Strip.


Discuss?

[GorkerMorker]

They're hitting 1.5 million people with it instead of the militia firing home made cardboard tubes at Israels troops. I consider it wrong. People are losing their jobs because of this and there isn't that much left for jobless people without water or electricity but strapping a bomb on yourself and take the bus.

[Kazuya vs Ummagumma]

It's a bit Ill-concieved. This is supposed to be the Israeli's diplomatic solution as opposed to going into Gaza and killing the people launching the rockets and a few human shields that get in the way. But I really can't see them being stopped or the situation getting better because of it.

[GorkerMorker]

Of course it's supposed to be a peacefull way. Though they're not generating any good will amongst the local population, it might even turn to more support to Hamas because of it. Right now Hamas is using this embargo to create even more hate. That's why i'd say, leave civillians out of this. As far as I know the palestinian millitia don't really pose a thread, and barely managed to wound a view soldiers in countless amateuristic attempts.

[ʘ]

They're hitting 1.5 million people with it instead of the militia firing home made cardboard tubes at Israels troops. I consider it wrong. People are losing their jobs because of this and there isn't that much left for jobless people without water or electricity but strapping a bomb on yourself and take the bus.

Of course it's supposed to be a peacefull way. Though they're not generating any good will amongst the local population, it might even turn to more support to Hamas because of it. Right now Hamas is using this embargo to create even more hate. That's why i'd say, leave civillians out of this. As far as I know the palestinian millitia don't really pose a thread, and barely managed to wound a view soldiers in countless amateuristic attempts.

Firstly, these aren't "home made cardboard tubes" and they're definitely not aimed at troop. They're aimed at a city -Shderot. It's a small miracle those tubes have only managed to kill so few people in the past few years, but it is disrupting the daily life of civilians in the area, and the small number of casualties might be down to the shelters that have been built and the schools that were reinforced with steel and concrete. On top of the fact there's an alarm every time a launch is detected, which sends the civilians running to the shelter. Bear in mind that the Hamas is stocking up on more sophisticated weapon through smuggling (mainly from Egypt), so today it's Kassam rockets, tomorrow it's similar to the rockets the Hizballa fired during the second Lebanon War at northern cities. This has to be stopped.

Secondly, the Hamas isn't a bunch of armatures playing with some guns. Any attempt by the Israelis to go into Gaza and take out the rocket-firing terrorists is bound to encounter heavy resistance. So other than the fact it's sure to cause the death of innocent Palestinians (because the Hamas is hiding in neighbourhoods and is using their residents as human shields), it's going to cause the deaths of many Israeli soldiers. So I think that disrupting the lives of Palestinians out of the thought it might make them overthrow the government, isn't that far-fetched. Creating pressure on the Hamas government while negotiating with Abu Mazan, is the MO of the Israeli government these days...

And now a little exercise: imagine some small country is launching missiles at you. That country is saying you're its enemy; that government is saying it's behind the attacks and that they want to cause as many civilian casualties as possible. Would you actually help that country? Would you give fuel and electricity (as far as I know, there's still movement of other supplies, including humanitarian aid through the Israeli side, to Gaza) to the same country that's attacking you?

[Sexy Pankhurst]

It's happening again...:(

The problem here is religion, and the entirely fictitious notion that it somehow entitles people to a piece of land. Until we've found a way around that, it's fucked and it'll stay and taking sides in the matter just means you're choosing to support one or the other in a who's-the-most-deluded-fundamentalist-dickhead stakes. Both nations are moronic.

Creating a Palestinian state would probably just make matters worse. I mean look at Zionism, to suggest that Jews are incapable of integrating with society and live alongside other groups is to imply that the extreme suffering they've faced is somewhat justified. It's all nationalism, racism, xenophobia and oppurtunism with a flag stuck on top to make it all seem legitimate.

The only workable solution to this conflict, well any really, is for the people at the bottom to realise that their respective conflicts are kept going solely for the benefit of the leaders of various nationalistic causes. Ultimately, the Israeli and Palestinian workers won't benefit should their respective 'sides' win out in the end so they should stop trying.

[€ngel]

It's really terrible. And I doubt it will ever end, that's the worst of it all.

[~screenager~]

It's really terrible. And I doubt it will ever end, that's the worst of it all. People said the same about Northern Ireland, though. Obviously that conflict was on a much smaller scale and religion played a different role, but people run out of steam eventually. Mightn't be in this generation, but it will have to end sometime, one way or another.

[GorkerMorker]

Not cutting people off from basic needs and just breaking that fucking wall down would help allot.

[gwezza]

Yes, but would you prefer a country that doesn't have a quite so denying president to have one.

As much as I dislike Israel and stuff, I'd prefer them to NOT get the shit nuked out of them. Can you name any country (other than those mentioned) that you'd have absolutely no issue with giving them?

There is a reason why we have freaked out about other nations getting nukes. Next up: Africa gets nukes and turns into a glowing cloud of radiation. Yep, I am saying that large parts of the world would LOVE to wipe out their ethnic rivals with nukes. So until they grow up, let's not give them an easy way to do that.

The amount of :facepalm: cannot be conveyed in even 100 posts. Africa is a 'nation?' :noey:
The US 'doesn't have nukes' but Iran is the country denying that it has them? Maybe Iran does, but WMDs in Iraq spring to mind. The US is the country that, for better or worse, dropped TWO nuclear bombs on countless civillians in Japan, the only nation to have actually used nuclear weapons and them threatened to use them again during the cold war :facepalm: If you're going to take nuclear weapons from anyone (as would be best if possible), the US would be the first.It's happening again...:(

The problem here is religion, and the entirely fictitious notion that it somehow entitles people to a piece of land. Until we've found a way around that, it's fucked and it'll stay and taking sides in the matter just means you're choosing to support one or the other in a who's-the-most-deluded-fundamentalist-dickhead stakes. Both nations are moronic.

Creating a Palestinian state would probably just make matters worse. I mean look at Zionism, to suggest that Jews are incapable of integrating with society and live alongside other groups is to imply that the extreme suffering they've faced is somewhat justified. It's all nationalism, racism, xenophobia and oppurtunism with a flag stuck on top to make it all seem legitimate.

The only workable solution to this conflict, well any really, is for the people at the bottom to realise that their respective conflicts are kept going solely for the benefit of the leaders of various nationalistic causes. Ultimately, the Israeli and Palestinian workers won't benefit should their respective 'sides' win out in the end so they should stop trying.

I couldn't have said it better myself, but it's depressing as it means the solutions are just not there. And I'm usually an optomist/idealist.

Palestinians - living among civilians and attacking from there so that their own people are a human shield and the attacks in reprisal from Israel are a propaganda tool :facepalm: :(

Israelis - attacking civilian areas in retaliation and refusing a ceasefire :facepalm: :(

[Black Mamba]

I don't blame Israel for doing what they're doing now, I'm used to it and they did worse stuff anyway. This time it was surprising because it came after some Egytians told Hamas tehy won't attack them,that's why many Pople are angry,noy with Israel but with Egypt and its patehtic attempts at being a learder in the Middle East.
I'm angry at the fucking Hypocrites who call themselves Arabs, if it wasn't for their shameful silence Israel would think twice before doing anything. and They would sit with the Palestinians and talk.

So much for Arabic fraternity, I feel ashamed of them.

[GorkerMorker]

Okay Israel just send forces into the Gaza.

[cherrilleee.]

Tons and tons and tons of protests worldwide from this whole fiasco. IMO Gaza>Israel at this moment.

[Liron]

Tons and tons and tons of protests worldwide from this whole fiasco. IMO Gaza>Israel at this moment.

I don't think you can truly judge before you've actually lived in Israel in one of the cities that was being attacked by Hamas' rockets for the last few years. It's not living.. Having to go into safe room at least once a day for so long!

That being said, I do not support this silly war. I don't think our idiotic government actually did enough to prevent the missles firing before sending the air force and troops in... they never really tried to talk. What annoys me most now is seeing so many fellow Israeli showing their true skins ('kill them all', 'they're all animals' etc..), fkn disgusting.

[Rhymes with Booze]

:'(

[CitizenAgitated]

Only remains to be seen now if Israel has the gumption to finish the job once and for all.

[Strawberry_Juice]

:facepalm:
Everything, everyone, every side.
Just one massive :facepalm:

I don't feel like arguing or being cool and picking a side. I have friends in the IDF right now, and it's worrying. I just hope it's over sooner rather than later. That's all.

[GorkerMorker]

The whole thing is so fucking sinister. Israel is just abusing the vacuum the US government finds itself in.

[CitizenAgitated]

The whole thing is so fucking sinister. Israel is just abusing the vacuum the US government finds itself in.

So you propose Israel allow rockets to continue raining down on its citizens indefinitely to satisfy your moral conscience? Puh-leese.